I have decided to officially move towards multiple scorecards per group at my events. Cheaters are out there and every event has seems to have one. I have been approached by players after my events are over saying "the guy on my card cheated and we confirmed it" but this was after the event was over and I cannot do anything about it, but say look out for this person. League play, tournament play, etc . . . it needs to be stopped. Suggestions could be this: Multiple scorecards *the civil approach to stopping this* Never let that person take score *Call him out publicly so everyone knows* -the less civil approach So, if you come to my events, expect to have multiple scorecards in your group. It's might not prevent cheating, but hopefully it will reduce it. My .02 cents http://www.sndg.org/forum/read.php?2,230557,230557#msg-230557 Sat, 18 May 2013 11:47:47 -0500 Phorum 5.2.15a http://www.sndg.org/forum/read.php?2,230557,232303#msg-232303 http://www.sndg.org/forum/read.php?2,230557,232303#msg-232303 jeffkleminsky General Discussion Thu, 01 Nov 2012 20:29:51 -0500 http://www.sndg.org/forum/read.php?2,230557,232301#msg-232301 http://www.sndg.org/forum/read.php?2,230557,232301#msg-232301 jeffkleminsky General Discussion Thu, 01 Nov 2012 20:25:51 -0500 http://www.sndg.org/forum/read.php?2,230557,232292#msg-232292 http://www.sndg.org/forum/read.php?2,230557,232292#msg-232292
No can of worms here. I respect your opinion and applaud your initiative to try something new. I just think multiple score cards generate more problems than they solve and would not like to see this as a generally accepted practice for the reasons I have stated. My basic objection can be found in an old adage: "A man with one watch always knows what time it is; a man with two watches is never sure." I am sincere about wanting to know how it works out for you.

At my players meeting I take a minute to demonstrate the proper way to record scores and emphasize that everyone follow that procedure and state that anyone on the card can look at the card at any time. So far the results have proved satisfactory.

Gary]]> Gary Wagoner General Discussion Thu, 01 Nov 2012 14:02:10 -0500 http://www.sndg.org/forum/read.php?2,230557,232277#msg-232277 http://www.sndg.org/forum/read.php?2,230557,232277#msg-232277 -------------------------------------------------------
> I do not see a upside to multiple scorecards:
>
> 1. It is in conflict with the PDGA rules which
> stipulate a single card per group.
>
> 2. If a tournament has two 18 hole courses and 3
> rounds that is 18 x 3 x 2 = 108 cards. If each
> player gets his own card that is 432 cards in the
> event the tournament fills up. Do not forget to
> include 438 plastic bags in case it rains and 438
> pencils. A little more expense for the TD?
>
> 3. Everyone turns in their own card at their own
> pace so they will get mixed up. Instead of
> checking 36 cards the TD has to check 144 cards.
> A little more work for the TD?
>
> 4. In the event of a disputed score the TD now has
> to settle it by getting the affected group
> together after the round is over instead of the
> players resolving it immediately after the hole.
> There is no "official" card. A little more work
> for the TD?
>
> 5. Suppose a group says that this is nuts and
> refuses to keep multiple scorecards. Will the TD
> disqualify them for refusal to deviate from the
> PDGA rules?
>
> Instead of settling a disputed score immediately
> after the hole as required by the PDGA rules it is
> now added to the TDs plate. Trackin01, you have
> committed to institute this procedure. Please let
> me know how it turns out.
>
> Gary Wagoner

Gary I must of opened a can of worms with you. Good research and good points made here. However, If the TD is the only person sitting at the table and doing everything himself with absolutely no help, this conclusion you have made would be extremely challenging. If a person is willing to help, I will quickly say here is something you can do. Or I just step up and find someone that has helped and ask them for help. I have yet had a person say "NO"

#1 Regardless is the One card per group rule is recommended, I have been to multiple "BIG" PDGA events that use this method. I don't go to the extreme of the USDGC and make each person use a card, but at least 2 players. I tried a 4 person card event once and yes that was a bit too much. Again, I have always had help with people willing to count scores in the end.

#2 The expense of printing scorecards is not expensive. I can print three scorecards on one sheet of cardstock. Besides, if it is too expensive for you, then I suggest maybe just using this method at the larger events where more money is involved where players tend to try and cheat. Use that sponsorship money if you raise it.

#3 In your players meeting make sure it is understood that ALL players turn in their card as a group. If two cards are not turned in at the same time, I have set it to the side and usually by the time I have finished with the cards it has been turn in. Not everyone listens to those players meetings.

#4 Wouldn't you have to settle a disputed score regardless in the same way? I have had to chase guys down and gather the whole group over a disputed score when there was one card. The process is still the same. But I do understand about the official card, thats why a group decision on that particular hole has to be determined. It happened in Jonesboro. 3 guys agreed on one thing while the 4th guy denied it. Had to go with the group decision.

#5 That is a great question and tough to answer. Disqualifing over that might not be an option for me. Stroke the whole card would be considered for sure. If you are serious about it and there is multiple cards of your division, then a penalty should be made. If you don't stand up for what your doing, then those players will just keep doing it and not take your methods serious. Kind of like disqualifying someone for drinking a beer during a round in a tournament. I even witness someone get disqualified for having his beer on ice in a rolling cart during the 1st round of a big PDGA event. Your event will be taken as serious as you want to make it. Professionalism is as much work on you as you want to make it too. If you don't want to put in the effort to at least try and solve this issue, then don't bother with it and allow it to occur over and over again.

Your wanting once person to call all scores out and his own during the round and frankly it rarely happens in the Amateur divisions. Especially when someone is a seasoned Amateur compared to someone who is new. The seasoned Amateur will take scores and try something shady when the new Amateur would be clueless. Most of the time I hear the new Amateur is affraid to call a seasoned Amateur out on a call. Some people are just not comforable with conflict.

The two card method isn't the sure fire fix here, but it is a method that I have used and cheating is less likely to occur when two players are taken score. That way one person doesn't have control of everyone's score with one card. As time moves forward, these new technologies are getting better an I am seeing many players with a disc golf app. They are using it regularly during rounds.]]> Trackin01 General Discussion Thu, 01 Nov 2012 09:32:00 -0500 http://www.sndg.org/forum/read.php?2,230557,232205#msg-232205 http://www.sndg.org/forum/read.php?2,230557,232205#msg-232205 J.Rester General Discussion Wed, 31 Oct 2012 14:05:42 -0500 http://www.sndg.org/forum/read.php?2,230557,232204#msg-232204 http://www.sndg.org/forum/read.php?2,230557,232204#msg-232204 Dillon Gourley General Discussion Wed, 31 Oct 2012 14:02:42 -0500 http://www.sndg.org/forum/read.php?2,230557,232201#msg-232201 http://www.sndg.org/forum/read.php?2,230557,232201#msg-232201 J.Rester General Discussion Wed, 31 Oct 2012 12:58:01 -0500 http://www.sndg.org/forum/read.php?2,230557,232197#msg-232197 http://www.sndg.org/forum/read.php?2,230557,232197#msg-232197 bryan griffin General Discussion Wed, 31 Oct 2012 11:50:48 -0500 http://www.sndg.org/forum/read.php?2,230557,232153#msg-232153 http://www.sndg.org/forum/read.php?2,230557,232153#msg-232153
1. It is in conflict with the PDGA rules which stipulate a single card per group.

2. If a tournament has two 18 hole courses and 3 rounds that is 18 x 3 x 2 = 108 cards. If each player gets his own card that is 432 cards in the event the tournament fills up. Do not forget to include 438 plastic bags in case it rains and 438 pencils. A little more expense for the TD?

3. Everyone turns in their own card at their own pace so they will get mixed up. Instead of checking 36 cards the TD has to check 144 cards. A little more work for the TD?

4. In the event of a disputed score the TD now has to settle it by getting the affected group together after the round is over instead of the players resolving it immediately after the hole. There is no "official" card. A little more work for the TD?

5. Suppose a group says that this is nuts and refuses to keep multiple scorecards. Will the TD disqualify them for refusal to deviate from the PDGA rules?

Instead of settling a disputed score immediately after the hole as required by the PDGA rules it is now added to the TDs plate. Trackin01, you have committed to institute this procedure. Please let me know how it turns out.

Gary Wagoner]]> Gary Wagoner General Discussion Tue, 30 Oct 2012 18:20:24 -0500 http://www.sndg.org/forum/read.php?2,230557,232128#msg-232128 http://www.sndg.org/forum/read.php?2,230557,232128#msg-232128 If you can't get multiple cards at a tourney, keep your own card. Only one type of person would have any issue with someone keeping a second card....]]> lmeyers General Discussion Tue, 30 Oct 2012 13:52:56 -0500 http://www.sndg.org/forum/read.php?2,230557,231769#msg-231769 http://www.sndg.org/forum/read.php?2,230557,231769#msg-231769 JBrowntown7 General Discussion Tue, 23 Oct 2012 15:45:42 -0500 http://www.sndg.org/forum/read.php?2,230557,231759#msg-231759 http://www.sndg.org/forum/read.php?2,230557,231759#msg-231759 -------------------------------------------------------
> literally all 18 of us went and told the TD's but they said they
> couldnt do anything about it because we told them
> afterwards. Not like we could pause the tournament
> and go complain.

I guess that's 18 idiots. That's y'alls fault. If you suspect a cheater watch the score keeper write down scores, keep track of the running score and check the card every few holes, call out any discrepancies, ask the cheater to pass the card.

Memphis has a few of them
Hamilton, AL has 1
Southaven HAD 1, think he be a reformed cheater now.

Sure there are tons of pencil whippers out there, I see them mainly in the INT. division.]]> Dillon Gourley General Discussion Tue, 23 Oct 2012 14:06:12 -0500 http://www.sndg.org/forum/read.php?2,230557,231742#msg-231742 http://www.sndg.org/forum/read.php?2,230557,231742#msg-231742 -------------------------------------------------------
> glad someone is doing this. The last Sn tournament
> I went to, 18 of us called out one specific player
> that was tied for the lead. he kept the scorecard
> the entire day and kept cheating. literally all 18
> of us went and told the TD's but they said they
> couldnt do anything about it because we told them
> afterwards. Not like we could pause the tournament
> and go complain.


It's a silly reason to win an event. Some people have no shame and continue to do it. Even good players who don't even need to cheat still somehow try to pull fast ones on people. I have found it mostly on courses where holes are longer than normal and players are throwing 4, 5, 6, 7's on a few holes. That is where you tend to find the mistakes/Cheating. My two card per group method and addressing it up front in the players meeting has really shed some light on the deal. Kind of sets the tone for "Look Out" we are watching you and I think those guys who think about cheating have second thoughts.]]> Trackin01 General Discussion Tue, 23 Oct 2012 08:45:06 -0500 http://www.sndg.org/forum/read.php?2,230557,231739#msg-231739 http://www.sndg.org/forum/read.php?2,230557,231739#msg-231739 JBrowntown7 General Discussion Tue, 23 Oct 2012 08:36:22 -0500 http://www.sndg.org/forum/read.php?2,230557,231704#msg-231704 http://www.sndg.org/forum/read.php?2,230557,231704#msg-231704 -------------------------------------------------------
> Gary makes a great point....(as usual).....seems
> that approach as followed would mitigate the
> issues of multiple cards in a group....
>
> I've even played with a fella (not from Memphis as
> I recall) that kept his own card during a tourney
> (which I cared nothing about) - he said he was
> compiling his scores and places that he played (if
> I recall I was either in Florence or Huntsville at
> the time)......
>
> In any event CHEATERS SUCK ROTTEN EGGS!!

That just might have been me! I know I have said that before, and I ALWAYS keep a personal card. I usually have it totaled before the "official" card is done and almost all the time agree with the scores called out at the end of the round!

If you follow the rules as in Garys post, you can't go wrong either!

I am just glad that 99% of all Disc Golfers are honest people, but even honest people make a mistake once in a while!]]> DG Guy General Discussion Mon, 22 Oct 2012 18:02:22 -0500 http://www.sndg.org/forum/read.php?2,230557,231504#msg-231504 http://www.sndg.org/forum/read.php?2,230557,231504#msg-231504 Discdodger333 General Discussion Thu, 18 Oct 2012 19:32:10 -0500 http://www.sndg.org/forum/read.php?2,230557,231313#msg-231313 http://www.sndg.org/forum/read.php?2,230557,231313#msg-231313 tmad1004 General Discussion Tue, 16 Oct 2012 21:21:26 -0500 http://www.sndg.org/forum/read.php?2,230557,231304#msg-231304 http://www.sndg.org/forum/read.php?2,230557,231304#msg-231304 I hate to say it but rules are rules if i follow the rules those that play in my group in tournaments sure will that i can garrantee !!!!!! true story:-)]]> Discdodger333 General Discussion Tue, 16 Oct 2012 18:22:51 -0500 http://www.sndg.org/forum/read.php?2,230557,230978#msg-230978 http://www.sndg.org/forum/read.php?2,230557,230978#msg-230978 Enough thrown..]]> Flick McWraith General Discussion Wed, 10 Oct 2012 19:55:30 -0500 http://www.sndg.org/forum/read.php?2,230557,230743#msg-230743 http://www.sndg.org/forum/read.php?2,230557,230743#msg-230743 -------------------------------------------------------
> Call them out in public. Nothing like public
> ridicule to put someones cheating ways in check.
>
> It has been done this way(locally), and it did
> work.


DIDN'T STOP BUDDY.]]> BERNIE General Discussion Fri, 05 Oct 2012 18:07:14 -0500 http://www.sndg.org/forum/read.php?2,230557,230698#msg-230698 http://www.sndg.org/forum/read.php?2,230557,230698#msg-230698 804.03 Scoring

B. After each hole is completed, The scorekeeper shall call out each player's name. The called player shall answer with the score in a manner that is clear to all players of the group and the scorekeeper. The scorekeeper shall record that score and read it back, in a manner that is clear to all players of the group. If there is any disagreement about the score a player reports, the group must review the hole and attempt to arrive at the correct score.

801.01 Courtesy

C. Refusal to perform an action expected by the rules, such as....keeping score properly is a courtesy violation.

A player can not refuse to keep score properly without first receiving a warning and then a stroke for every violation. If someone were to cheat while the group followed these rules and kept and eye on the card it would be so obvious as to merit disqualification.

Gary Wagoner (quoting the PDGA rules book)]]> Gary Wagoner General Discussion Thu, 04 Oct 2012 20:06:36 -0500 http://www.sndg.org/forum/read.php?2,230557,230694#msg-230694 http://www.sndg.org/forum/read.php?2,230557,230694#msg-230694 tmad1004 General Discussion Thu, 04 Oct 2012 19:44:27 -0500 http://www.sndg.org/forum/read.php?2,230557,230671#msg-230671 http://www.sndg.org/forum/read.php?2,230557,230671#msg-230671
I've even played with a fella (not from Memphis as I recall) that kept his own card during a tourney (which I cared nothing about) - he said he was compiling his scores and places that he played (if I recall I was either in Florence or Huntsville at the time)......

In any event CHEATERS SUCK ROTTEN EGGS!!]]> bryan griffin General Discussion Thu, 04 Oct 2012 09:32:11 -0500 http://www.sndg.org/forum/read.php?2,230557,230666#msg-230666 http://www.sndg.org/forum/read.php?2,230557,230666#msg-230666 m sidebottom General Discussion Thu, 04 Oct 2012 09:14:41 -0500 http://www.sndg.org/forum/read.php?2,230557,230639#msg-230639 http://www.sndg.org/forum/read.php?2,230557,230639#msg-230639 -------------------------------------------------------
> Just remember, people from ALL walks of life play
> disc golf. Even those that can't count past
> three.


No offense intended, but if someone can't count past three, they should definitely NOT be playing a tournnament IMO!!!!]]> M Russell General Discussion Wed, 03 Oct 2012 13:21:05 -0500 http://www.sndg.org/forum/read.php?2,230557,230632#msg-230632 http://www.sndg.org/forum/read.php?2,230557,230632#msg-230632
All players should insist on this procedure. There is absolutely no excuse for not following it. If there is someone keeping score who says, "Did everyone get a three?", I ask him to call out the names and scores individually including his own score. If the scorekeeper starts writing down scores without calling out the player's names, especially his own namd and score, that should be nipped in the bud immediately.

Any player has the right to look at the card at any time. If there is a suspicion of writing down the wrong score then the card should be reviewed after every hole. I don't understand how it is possible to cheat on recording the scores if this procedure is followed.

Gary Wagoner]]> Gary Wagoner General Discussion Wed, 03 Oct 2012 10:40:10 -0500 http://www.sndg.org/forum/read.php?2,230557,230628#msg-230628 http://www.sndg.org/forum/read.php?2,230557,230628#msg-230628 wayneacree General Discussion Wed, 03 Oct 2012 09:11:23 -0500 http://www.sndg.org/forum/read.php?2,230557,230608#msg-230608 http://www.sndg.org/forum/read.php?2,230557,230608#msg-230608 M Russell General Discussion Tue, 02 Oct 2012 22:41:34 -0500 http://www.sndg.org/forum/read.php?2,230557,230586#msg-230586 http://www.sndg.org/forum/read.php?2,230557,230586#msg-230586 Keith Bodin General Discussion Tue, 02 Oct 2012 14:45:28 -0500 http://www.sndg.org/forum/read.php?2,230557,230581#msg-230581 http://www.sndg.org/forum/read.php?2,230557,230581#msg-230581 Solomon General Discussion Tue, 02 Oct 2012 14:10:45 -0500