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Current SN Handbook

Posted by Eric Day 
Re: New SN Handbook
January 14, 2013 04:05PM
If you would please, mainly to keep a player from turning down cash in lieu of prizes.

Thanks Eric.

Terry Zeringue
Re: New SN Handbook
January 14, 2013 05:45PM
I think we swiped the prizes in lieu rule from the PDGA, like a lot of things, to make the SN more global.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 01/14/2013 05:46PM by Discjazz.
Dex
Re: New SN Handbook
January 15, 2013 09:11AM
I think it warrants a discussion as well

make it universal across the board


Thanks

Dex
Re: New SN Handbook
January 15, 2013 10:17AM
I'd be interested to know some actual historical facts and statistics about how and how often the prizes in lieu rule has been used in the SN. It would be appropriate for the rule change proponents to provide that here or perhaps on a separate thread. Does it happen enough to even be important? I'm not that tournament active but I've seen very little use of the rule and none I noticed to be abusive.

I will offer one good argument for eliminating the prizes in lieu rule - we don't have the capacity to track it on this site.
Dex
Re: New SN Handbook
January 15, 2013 10:43AM
Yeah I agree, I have only seen it done a couple of times


Dex
Re: New SN Handbook
January 15, 2013 10:44AM
In teh 15 years I have been running events, I think I have only seen it happen once.

Dg Guy - Disc GOlf Plaques & Awards
662-660-0339

Know what you throw. . .
. . . throw what you know!
Re: New SN Handbook
January 15, 2013 11:09AM
So the question here is an INT player plays up in the ADV division and cashes but doesn't want to continue playing ADV so wants to decline the prizes to retain his/her INT status? Should they be allowed to do so? Based off of the idea that an AM player can decline cash playing as a pro in Lieu of prizes.

IMO the INT player would have no reason to decline the prizes other than if the INT devision was not offered at that particular event. Otherwise why would he/she play the divison and not be ready to except the prizes if they finish in a paid position. Now if you did have the situation where there was no INT division offered, that would be something open for discussion.
Re: New SN Handbook
January 15, 2013 11:24AM
Zack, an INT. player could be forced to play in ADV by a T.D. as well.
Re: New SN Handbook
January 15, 2013 11:33AM
I say if you cash in advance you should NOT be allowed to decline prizes just to stay in Int. Why open up a loop hole for more bagging in the Am divisions? They cash play 4 more events if they don't cash then they can move back down in accordance with the rules in place now. A disc in advance is the same disc in int. We are nitpicking this too much.

___________________________________________________________________________
Keith "Sunshine" B.

"You are truly one miserable human being."
Alxtgr
Re: New SN Handbook
January 15, 2013 11:34AM
I agree if he or she has cashed in ADV within the previous 4 events that they have played. Is there another reason I'm missing. and totally agree with Sunshine



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 01/15/2013 11:36AM by hudd.
Re: New SN Handbook
January 15, 2013 12:18PM
Seems like we now have two (2) issues being debated here. One is the prizes in lieu rule that Zinger is opposed to. The other is the prize "acceptance" rule that Keith is opposed to.

I think the justification for the latter rule has been "water testing" and especially when it's a small division one is testing the water in.

I imagine Intermediate status is statistically preserved less often by non-acceptance than Advanced status, but that is just a wild guess. What about preserving Recreational status by non-acceptance? Currently we allow all 3 unlimited. Do we draw a line between those 3 categories, wipe out all status preservation non-acceptances or split the baby with limitations?

Is either rule really worth arguing over when we have other fish to fry?
Re: New SN Handbook
January 15, 2013 12:57PM
Quote
Jazz
Is either rule really worth arguing over when we have other fish to fry?

No not really....I am just bored at work right now....

___________________________________________________________________________
Keith "Sunshine" B.

"You are truly one miserable human being."
Alxtgr
Re: New SN Handbook
January 15, 2013 03:30PM
So a conversation is now considered "arguing". I'm sorry for starting an argument everyone.


Sheesh

Terry Zeringue
Re: New SN Handbook
January 15, 2013 05:22PM
No need to deny your namesake. Arguments are awesome and Zingers are the best arguments.
Re: New SN Handbook
February 06, 2014 10:00AM
I played an event where at the beginning of round 2, 3 players didn't join their groups till the 4th hole. The TD allowed them to go back in play the wholes afterwards even after some of the players questioned it. These players ended up finishing 1st, 3rd and 4th. He said he allowed it cause it was Novice division. Does the TD have the right to make this call, or are rules rules no matter the division and what can be done in the future?


Thanks.
Re: New SN Handbook
February 06, 2014 11:07AM
going on the information you posted, the late players would have carded a 7 each hole they failed to throw. There is a time limit to take your place in the throwing order. This rule is not subject to modification by the TD! The division has nothing to do with it, in fact, it is a disservice to the "novice" players that the rules of play do not have to be followed.

Dg Guy - Disc GOlf Plaques & Awards
662-660-0339

Know what you throw. . .
. . . throw what you know!
Re: New SN Handbook
February 06, 2014 11:17AM
My memory is that would be a violation of a PDGA rule probably adopted by the SN handbook but it's a little hard to prove because of SN failure to yet catch up to the PDGA 2013 rule changes. It might also be seen as no biggie because Rec finishing place basically has no SNC significance.
Re: New SN Handbook
February 06, 2014 11:38AM
I didn't see DG Guy's post before mine but I do agree with his too. I will add that hyper-technically "novice" is not even a SN division so under that view l suppose the TD rules but the SN could reject the results of the offenders or the entire division. It just would not serve much of a SNC purpose to reject 2nd round results.
Re: New SN Handbook
February 06, 2014 11:50AM
DG Guy Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> going on the information you posted, the late
> players would have carded a 7 each hole they
> failed to throw.

He actually didn't post enough information to determine what exact score should be recorded for the holes that the players missed. The rule is that the score of par plus 4 throws should be recorded. The actual language from Section 1.5 of the PDGA Competition Manual:

"If a player is not present to throw when it is his or her turn, the scorekeeper shall allow 30 seconds. If the player has not thrown after the 30 seconds has elapsed, a score of par plus four is to be entered for that hole. This procedure continues on any subsequent holes for which a player is absent. No holes shall be replayed."

It is perhaps the only time that actual par has any importance in scoring.
Re: New SN Handbook
February 06, 2014 12:33PM
Jazz, true, Par could have been 4 and the recorded score would have then been an 8. Also as DiscJazz says, the Novice and Recreational divisions do not get points awarded to them.

Dg Guy - Disc GOlf Plaques & Awards
662-660-0339

Know what you throw. . .
. . . throw what you know!
Re: New SN Handbook
February 06, 2014 05:03PM
Thanks yall. It was par 3 holes. it would have been 28 strokes each. Granted Novice do not get points, they still get prizes for finishing in the top 1/3rd or so, depending on the tournament. Beings how this was my first tournament I was a little upset simply cause a knew the rules and felt it was unfair. I feel rules should be enforced from juniors up. Thank you all for the info. Looking forward to moving up to Am's soon, so it was still all helpful info.
Re: New SN Handbook
February 07, 2014 01:01AM
This has happened outside of Novice also, This happened to at least 1 player at the Howler in adv this year and almost another on my card. "Personally" I feel like it doesn't make that big of a difference, it's an Am division and You are playing for plastic. I feel it is up to the T.D. to make this call as He may have felt responsible for not clarifying the Tee time. I've ran into the issue twice personally in 5 years, first time I got lost on the course and couldn't find my hole, the card allowed Me to catch up as they finished putting out. The 2nd time someone changed Me to another hole, they did this very late after the players meeting, again My "new" group allowed Me to play the hole I missed. Now if only 3 people missed 3 holes and everyone else was on time, odds are they are at fault. However they are Novice players and the point of that division is learning the rules. I'm sure they all know now to show up on time.

Again this is all "Personal" feelings on the issue, not the thoughts of the Board.
Re: New SN Handbook
February 07, 2014 08:47AM
Eric,

I beg to differ.

I Had to DQ someone I thought was a friend for showing up late and just falling in with another group, clearly a rules violation, try it at the PDGA Worlds! I was tempted allowed it but there was a clear complaint from another in their division, on their card! NO CHOICE! As it turned out, I was the BAD GUY, two people never came to my events after that, and they bad mouthed me to everyone they played with. Probably still doing it today! So be it, they were not missed and made absolutely no difference in the long run, so who is the joke on? The rules were enforced and the integrity or the great sport of Disc Golf was maintained. Nice thing about the truth, you don't have to remember anything, not so with lies!

And it DOES make a difference in ALL divisions, even if it is a prize only division. Those prizes are awarded JUST LIKE cash is to the Pros, also goes for the points. Tell the guy who misses the SNAC by a few points that it does not matter that other players were awarded points after being allowed to circumvent the rules.

Might just as well have everyone draw what place they finish or purchase it outright! No RULES, Not Right! Don't even need to show up, just call the TD and say you had 18 aces send me my prize! Where will it end?

Many, MANY, long years were spent, trial and error, to assemble the "Rules of Play" for a reason, FAIR PLAY!

So to say it does not matter just does not hold true, at least to those who play by the rules.

Dg Guy - Disc GOlf Plaques & Awards
662-660-0339

Know what you throw. . .
. . . throw what you know!
Re: New SN Handbook
February 07, 2014 11:11AM
My issue happened at the Howler this year as well. And that is my point DG GUY, integrity of the sport.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 02/07/2014 11:13AM by JesusFreakDG.
Re: New SN Handbook
February 07, 2014 11:45AM
This also happened at Louisiana State Championships in December. One player missed 6-7 holes in the first round, I not sure how many, because when he showed up, he started playing on the card behind mine, which was two to three holes back. This had the effect of lowering the number of penalty strokes. Ultimately it didn't matter because he incurred so many penalty strokes that he was way out of contention from the start. But this is a rule that should be enforced. The other players on the card are responsible for accurately recording the penalty strokes. Letting someone play on a different card or make up the holes is not only a favor for the person who couldn't show up on time and a statement to those that did that they really didn't need to, but it also puts the other players on the correct card in a position of having to record scores improperly or having their correctly recorded score changed or ignored by the TD. Not following the rules is simply cheating by whomever does it or allows it.
Re: New SN Handbook
February 07, 2014 01:37PM
There are several issues that the BOD needs to respond to, having been on the board I KNOW there is no easy cut & dried solution to all the issues and problems that exist out there in the real world, but the attempt to communicate is first and foremost the best tool we have to make the difference and further the goals of the Southern Nationals.

It would be so cool if there was a number the TD's could call and get an real person to talk to solve things like rules violations and tournament procedures. Since I have not been on here much the last year, I am not sure what the status is on the SN "Rule Book" or how easy it is to access.

Dg Guy - Disc GOlf Plaques & Awards
662-660-0339

Know what you throw. . .
. . . throw what you know!
Re: New SN Handbook
February 07, 2014 02:40PM
If a TD decides to not follow a rule as simple as the one being discussed, then that TD should not be allowed to run anymore SN events. This is not rocket since! If you are not on time you get stroked! plain and simple!

DG GUY I am going to contact you soon about some items I need made.

___________________________________________________________________________
Keith "Sunshine" B.

"You are truly one miserable human being."
Alxtgr
Re: New SN Handbook
February 07, 2014 02:50PM
The SN Handbook is easy to access. It's actually on page one of this thread but I recommend you use this link: [www.sndg.org]

Around the time the current SN Handbook was officially adopted, long after its last drafting edit, the PDGA restructured its rules. The SN rules were drafted to basically adopt the PDGA rules of play. However specific PDGA rule numbers were used in the SN Handbook so the PDGA 2013 restructuring meant that the SN Handbook doesn't really make sense anymore - just referring to that part of the SN Handbook that covers adoption of PDGA rules. That's why I wrote earlier that the rule adoption is a little hard to prove right now.

However, this issue of missing holes at the start of a round is not a SN rule issue at all other than as stated above. It is a PDGA rule issue. If play is by PDGA rules, then division is irrelevant and this TD erred. Now as far as I know there is no rule stopping a TD from re-assigning a late player to a different card, but in a shotgun start this would rarely save the late player from par + 4 scoring.

So it's great this issue is being discussed, but if we are going to bring integrity to the SN we need to know who this TD and these players are. What happened here is actually no different than what Dillon got penalized for. It is cheating because it is recording a score different from what the rules call for. We can't undo prizes awarded but we can DQ results like we did on Dillon.
Re: New SN Handbook
February 07, 2014 03:31PM
Discjazz, I generally agree with you except about the effect of reassignment to a different card. This can change both the number of missed holes and the score by changing which holes were missed. For example, the player who was late at Louisiana States joined a slower group. By the time our group noticed that the late player was playing the card behind us we had advanced one more hole than the group he joined. We were also finishing up a par 3 hole before moving to a par 4 which could have resulted in an extra stroke. On the course being played that round, it would have been theoretically possible to have a three stroke difference in score. As to which holes are played and which ones missed, even aside from holes with different par designations (and even if all holes are designated par 3), it certainly would be possible that either easier or more difficult holes might get played by the late player who has a card reassignment than if made to play in his originally assigned group. It's academic of course, because by missing that many holes, the player had no real chance of catching up to anyone else, but card reassignment can effect the score in both ways. And that is something that can be abused by a TD or late player who decides that a different card will put the late player in a better position to do well even is strokes are awarded for the holes missed.

To be clear, at Louisiana States, the player who was late got stroked and got plenty of them. I don't know if his playing on the wrong card was condoned by the TD or whether the TD even realized it. I suspect that once the TD or his designee assigned the penalty strokes, he realized, just as everyone else did, that the late player had no chance of being a factor in the tourney and didn't worry about the details much.
Re: New SN Handbook
February 07, 2014 03:32PM
Here lies some problems, Knowing full well there is a difference in the structure of the PDGA and the SN, to be "governed" by PDGA rules it seems that perhaps they should be adopted in whole to avoid confusion and the expense of printing.

I mean, after all, the SN's rules pretty well mimics the PDGA version anyway.

I took it upon myself one year to compile and print a SN rulebook. Other than wasting some money and giving a few away, not much was accomplished. May even still have a few laying around!

Discjazz, actually there is a rule:

If a player is not present to throw when it is his or her turn, the scorekeeper shall allow 30 seconds. If the player has not thrown after the 30 seconds has elapsed, a score of par plus four is to be entered for that hole. This procedure continues on any subsequent holes for which a player is absent. No holes shall be replayed. If a complete round is missed, or if a player does not finish a round, the player may, at the discretion of the Tournament Director, be disqualified.

Dg Guy - Disc GOlf Plaques & Awards
662-660-0339

Know what you throw. . .
. . . throw what you know!
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