Sand bagging is a thing that alot of people address, but noone seems to be doing anything about. When all the information needed to stop this is right here on this sight. As long as you give the player the option to play where he wants, then he will play where he knows he can win. I honestly feel that, until someone will do something about this, the sport will continue to grow at a snails pace. When I say the answer is right here on this sight, you can find the name, and score of most any player, at any SN tourny they have played. So I propose that they be flighted as in Ball Golf. It would require a little more work on the TD'spart, but it would be a great start to helping combat this wide spread problem. I think that tournaments would get much bigger, and much more competitive if this happens. For all the sceptics out there who would say people would get mad, you are right. I am sure some would get mad, like the Baggers. Who really cares about that, what good are they doing for the sport as a whole? I am not bashing who they are as people, I am sure they are good people, but they are poor sports. I played AM, and shot 18 over, which is the best score I have posted for that many holes ever. Where I am improving, I am not a competitive factor in that division. If I play Novice though, I get called a Bagger. So why would I even care about going to any tourny? I am proposing that the scores be taken directly off of this sight, and averaged based off of a selected number of scores here, and then flighted into a division in which they would be competitive. This way there is no adv. am, or int. am, there is only pro which is open, and all for all, and the am division which is flighted, according to skill level via the scores posted from previous tourny's. I am sure it may be a bit more complicated than what I am making it sound, but I would be willing to openly discuss this with anyone who is interested, and would do anytihing I could to help.

I don't think that anybody could ever accuse me of bagging....this past weekend at Texarkana is only one of my last place finishes.

I like the ratings system that the PDGA uses...and I think that the SN may need to look at something similar. But...will it work? How else, besides a ratings system, would one control sandbagging?

Hey Josh - use the enter button to break up your posts.

Trying to read all that makes my eyes water - and most don't read anything over 1 or 2 paragraphs.

I'll tell you what I think once I read it.

Will T

Honestly, just how BAD is sandbagging? Is it keeping people from playing event? I really don't see adding any more work to what TDs already face. if you've run an event, you know what I'm talking about. If you haven't, run one and find out. rWc3523

i think you should give out tissues so people like JSchlongbreath can have a good long cry about not winning every tournament. Does Alabama win every time it plays football? No, especially not this week! Here's a tissue.

That's why it's called "competition". What next...just have everyone play a round and don't keep score, then we'll all be winners like when JSchlongbreath plays at the special olympics. Quit whining about baggers and go practice, there were 70+ people in am at the howler, and only one 1st place plaque. So 69 people didn't sandbag, now go shut up you whiner, Bluff

Honestly sand bagging is a very big problem, keeping alot of players I know from playing tourny's. When a TD will talk openly about it being a problem, then it must have some merrit.

Thanks Will, I will try to do better...

Please understand, that I am not bad mouthing anyone, just trying to speak my mind, having a background in helping to grow a sport as controversial as paintball was, in the early 90's, to only one of the largest, and fastest growing sports of all time. Every year over 25 million people play paintball in the U.S. alone. There are talks of putting paintball in the X-Games. That is a sport much younger than Disc Golf, and much much much more expensive. How did it surpass Disc Golf in such a way?

By the way Bluff, I appreciate your words of wisdom, but Jsclongbreath does practice everyday, and has come a long way in the 3 months that I have been playing. Sorry my skills may not match up to your years of experiance if you have years if not, I appologize for not being a prodigy like you. As far as the special olympic comment, I would be happy to take you on in either of the sports that I have been proffesionally competitive. Paintball, or Cage fighting. You pick, and name the time and place. I understand that I wont win every tourny, but why even spend my money, when I know I stand no chance.

So if you have nothing to say, that will be constructive Piss Off!!!



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 10/29/2007 09:06PM by JLong.

Because people like shooting at each other? rWc3523

People do like shooting at each other, but All my paintbal brothers also like disc golf. Paintball got organized, and thats where disc golf is going to have to go in order to grow to the potential it has.

I think dividing players by a "rating" is a good idea... The problem is that there is no good rating system to use... You mention the "score" on this site... You can't use that... It does not reflect a player's skill level...

For example: Two players each play 4 tournaments...

Player A plays 4 tournaments with 10 people in their division at each one... They win all 4 tournaments... Their score is 23...

Player B plays 4 tournements with 40 people in their division at each one... They finish 19th at each tournament... Their score is 23...

Two players who's scores are equal then are grouped together even though one won every tournament they played and the other never even cashed...


If you want to use the PDGA player ratings, that is even worse... My rating is 919... If it was 915, I could play intermediate... 955 is considered the minimum bar for a pro player... Alot of people call me a "bagger" for not playing pro... I think that discredits that system enough...

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Casey Cox
"If you aint first, you're last." -- Ricky Bobby's daddy

2007-2008 SN Amateur Player of the Year
SN advanced single season points record holder - 466 (2007-2008)
SN advanced single season wins record holder - 16 (2007-2008)
SN advanced single season score record holder - 53.40 (2007-2008)

Disc golf IS organized. I'm not saying your idea wouldn't work, but it would require much more work on already stressed volunteers. Perhaps you should run an event and try it, or volunteer to assist a TD in your area (and that would be where?) and take care of that side of it? Then let us know how it worked out. Just an idea.

rWc3523

I would love to do that, and may just yet do it. It is still in the planning stage. Baton Rouge would be where I am from.

Casey, considering that Player A, and Player B played the same courses, just at different times, and tourny's, with different amounts of players of skill levels, and shot the same score wouldn't their skill be the same? Player A shoots 23, at Highland Rd, and wins because he is the best of the 10 ams there, and Player B shoots 23 at Highland Rd, and places 19th because there were 40 ams there, they were the same skill level. Thats why I say use the scores, and not the place in which they finished.

As far as the work goes, I understand that it would require alot of work on the volunteer force initially, but would it require much more work than having a PC savy person to design the program? We Already have the database right here. Now put the info into a trusty laptop, and vioala. Type a players name in the program, and there you have it his scores, and flight position right there.

Casey, no, you can't use the points system but you could do a reverse it and take all their places and average them out. If he's ranked below X then he should move up. I haven't really thought this out but it's a thought.

There are players not playing... those that you see at tournaments aren't the only ones that play DG. There are plenty that don't want to play because they feel they have no chance so why go. Especially when they post casual scores like mine. Granted I'm sure there are some that would say I should stop playing but I enjoy it even though I don't have a chance to win. I don't even look what place I come in, I look at how far from the bottom I am, so this isn't about me whinning, it's just obvious that some should move up. These results will show a couple for sure.

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Take me to the window and understand
I got a rocking chair in my skin.
And every time the wind blows
It brings me down to meet the mood I'm in.
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SN Top25 Bag Tag database
BRDGA Top10 Bag Tag database
MADGA Top10 Bag Tag database
SFC Top10 Bag Tag database

People have called me a bagger and I've been playing mostly pro master in SN. I have a 903 PDGA rating, which allows me to play Am. So much for ratings. rWc3523

PS, yes, if the database was available in a laptop, it would make it easier. We use one at registration already.

I don't think you understood what I was talking about... When I was referring to score, I was referring to each players "score" as defined on this site as a method of comparing players, not their actual score they shoot on a course...

You sure can't divide players based on the scores of their rounds because many players don't play the same courses ever and their is currently no system to compare scores...

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Casey Cox
"If you aint first, you're last." -- Ricky Bobby's daddy

2007-2008 SN Amateur Player of the Year
SN advanced single season points record holder - 466 (2007-2008)
SN advanced single season wins record holder - 16 (2007-2008)
SN advanced single season score record holder - 53.40 (2007-2008)

I am sure most everyone is knowledgeable of the courses, and their difficulty. So in doing this, the courses would have to have a difficulty rating, and the scores would be determined from there.

All of this will work. This is how ball golf tourny's are judged, and have been for over 70 years. None of this was pulled out of the dark. All we have to do is modify it to work with our sport, put forth a lil more effort to get it going. Once it is up, and in place we can possibly have revolutionized the sport, and made it more fun and available to play for the masses. One system very simple to understand.

I started this disccussion, for this exact reason. So that we could acknowledge there was a problem. The current rating system isn't working, more people aren't playing, becasue they feel they have no chance, and it is up to us to do something about it.

Casey thats what this post is about. Divising a system to compare apples to apples. Course raings should be no problem. We could get that in a matter of no time. I thought the courses this weekend at the Howler to be of average difficulty, on par with Greenwood. The Lafeyette Duzee, and Acerun courses are about the same length, but a bit more crowded, and thick which makes them a bit more difficult in my book. Highland Rd, and Pa Davis to me are on about the same track, due to not neccasarily their crowdedness, but their lenght, so maybe a bit higher than Greenwood, oer the courses the Howler put into place.

It is information like this, from players like us, that will be compiled, and used to make this system what it could be. Like I said I know it isn't impossible, they have been doing it with ball golf for over 70 years.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 10/29/2007 10:46PM by JLong.

What you are deescribing is the system that the PDGA has develop, called its ratings system. Courses are given a scratch score (what a 1000 rated player should shoot on a course) and ratings are calculated based on that. Then they do some weird math weighing when tournaments were played to come up with a rating. The system also factors in weather and other course complications specific to the day.

I have not played enough PDGA tournaments to comment on the effectiveness of the system one way or the other, though I do hear much less sandbagging comments coming from PDGA players.

While this issue of sandbagging seems to be a recurrent them on the message boards, I think it is a manifestation of what I see as the major difference between the PDGA and SN and a root cause of the rift that appears to exist between the two.

The two organizations view the sport differently, with the PDGA focusing on making bigger, more valuable tournaments, while the SN host tournaments for the players' enjoyment and to form friendships.

With that being said, I think the freedom to play in whatever division you feel appropriate is important to fulfilling the aims of the SN. The converse of this is that individuals playing for the friendships they form on the course will not want to sandbag because it will hurt the competition.

I looked at the numbers from some recent events to see what's going on before deciding to comment on this, and I don't think that sandbagging is as bad as people make it out to be. If you are willing to grant that amateurs are not the most consistent players, and could easily have a 5-6 stroke swing simply based on having a great day, then few players fall into the bagging category. Also, if you look at player rankings, counting percentage of 1-3 finishes and consider 50% a number that would mean you should move up (i picked that out of the sky. I also threw out tournaments with less than 7 or 8 in the division b/c I don't think there's enough competition) there are few who fit into this category.

In conclusion, I don't think the problem is all that bad. Just go out, enjoy the tournament, and remember that you probably don't really need that plastic you'd be winning anyway.

simple solution ............AM PAYOUT SHOULD BE SHALLOW AND DEEP! advanced payout should better ,read...(INCENTIVE TO MOVE UP TO ADV) and when they get tired of collecting plastic then they can move to pro and play for CASH.

Russell Bourg
former PDGA member # 26070

Mikey don't be a tool all your life, I don't want to see Jschlongbreath (that's a good one though) break you in half in a cage. Well maybe that would be cool.

Josh, I know where your coming from. I think the problem is there is NO easy way to do it and get it in place. Most TD's have so much on their plate as it is, it's tough for them to run a smooth tourney without a butt load of help. So at this point, it's merely left up to the players.
But, I will say that at some point something should be done to better define WHERE a player should play.
Maybe we need to add ANOTHER division Noviture :-)

how about limiting the number of first place finishes in am to maybe three before a mandatory move up to advanced?

i been around a long time, nothing will ever work because most of the problem is in our minds.i have known only 2-3 real baggers as long as i have been around.there will always be what i call a inbetween players.someone who works, goes to school or haves a familly and plays disc golf for something to do. he is neither a pro nor advance, if he shots real good everyone once in awhile , a few yells bagger.most the time he is playing with players he likes to play with.if the problem is as big as a few think it is we should hear from alot more players.paying more spots in all pro fields would be a big step to make players move up.this would only take all disc golf players taking a sponsorship pack to there work or placees they do alot of bussiness with.i still like the six month rule in cashing in. every once in awhile someone will use it to their advantage , but most the time it allows a player to go back where he belongs. if not that player would get tired of donating all the time and quit playing.we should always think of ideals of what we can do to make things work out better.i may be wrong about the above statement,i will always be thinking and listening to ideals, now go ace one for me, jim

Similar to Fish's solution, pay the top three Am's with a trophy and one disc.

TD's could include a cheap disc for all Am entries and still keep their registration fee's fairly low. All Am's get something and there's no reason to bag now unless you're working on your trophy case. Bagger's in the Am divisions usually plastic-out and start selling their awards anyway.

Pay Advanced in plastic and merchandise and the Pro's in cash as normal.

It would truly make the TD's job simplier as well.

[tupelodiscgolf.com]

many times we dont think about the whole thing, last year only 1 guy won 4 events in ams and 3 won 3 events, all of them played alot of tournaments. i think they are all playing advance this year,so is there a problem in ams.

so far this year between them all, they won 1 advance and there was only 6 players in it,

you dont have to make it complicated,just make a sandbagger blacklist and make sure all td's get it.the first name you put on the list is BAGGERGRAY,dont let him play advanced anymore.


BAGGER GRAY



"i am pure EVIL,now give me your funds"
creator of the most popular thread on the S.N.forums of all time
"Screw your Friggin Points"
PAID FOR BY THE FRIENDS AND SUPPORTERS OF THE GregOsnose "Sandbaggers, help the sport, help yourself - move up."
[profiles.yahoo.com]

Coming from someone who has obviously never played a round of disc golf with me. Ask anybody that has a played a round with me and I'll wager that not many of them think I am a PROFESSIONAL disc golfer.

Paul, when you play on your home courses, you should be playing Pro. You are good enough, you have won or came in the top 5 of a handfull of big trnys in Adv.

Terry Zeringue

The last 2 years I have played advanced and my score isn't even close to the open scores. Heck even the am players beat me this year!!! I dont have a large stash of treasured plastic from all my reaping of the lesser players. I dont think I was better than any of the players I played with this year or last. I dont have the time to go and practice everyday to try to get my game to where it would need to be to play open. So why again should I move up? To help better the sport? Nope only to fatten the open payout.

"baggergray" nuff said

if you played in tournaments and your scores compete with the scores in a higher division, not just if you win, you should move up. maybe if you have so many top 3 finishes, and that would not be hard to keep up with just check the tourney results on this site, you have to move up

i know in the MS state champ. the top 3 in the Im. division would have finished 4,5,&6 in the advanced division (and those where two difficult courses), now tell me, if you can beat over half of the players in the advanced division how do others in the Im. division have a chance

If 1-3 place finishes determine the need to move up, then players who play in smaller tournaments will suffer greatly. I've played many tournaments where a 3rd place finish is in the bottom half of the field, should such a finish be a reason to move up a division.