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New BR Course???

Posted by Esteves Barlow 
New BR Course???
November 01, 2002 09:26PM
I read somewhere that there is going to be a new BR course in Scotlandville? What park is it going to be at and where is the park? When it is expected to be ready?

What about the improvements at GW and Highland (new teesigns and concrete teeboxes...when are they going to be done?

Thanks,
Esteves
vl
Re: New BR Course???
November 02, 2002 09:20AM
it will not be anytime soon.

the BR parks dept, BREC has been telling us (since the first LA OPEN in 2001) that they would be willing to help the DG community to obtain a new course at the Scotlandvile park.

that park is on the East side of I-110 as you drive northward towards the Baker exit... the "nicest" part of the park as far as a course is concerned is near the intersection of Airline and I-110.

to access the parking area you must travel on Airline and Plank(?) and loop back around the I-110 service road. (there is no "direct" exit off of the Interstate... from Plank Rd look for the great white beached whale abandoned shopping center where the traffic light for the service road is...)

anywho, BREC will be applying for a grant for park improvements in 2003 for the new course and tboxs at the existing highland and greenwood courses so the goal is to have the tboxs in by the SN 03 Pro Finals)

i hope that the desgin does not end up "pitch and putt" for there are plenty of those type courses in the region...

hope this helps...
Re: New BR Course???
November 04, 2002 11:40AM
Pitch and putt?? Maybe we'll look in on making the course really fun instead of just long with not much else to it.
Re: New BR Course???
November 04, 2002 01:45PM
Cant the new course be long and fun?? Does FUN always have to equal
pitch and putt???? enough of the courses where you have to shoot 10-14 under to do well. I agree with VL there is enough pitch and putt or fun courses around. How 'bout long, hard, challenging and FUN where maybe only a few under would place very well. Just a thought.
vl
Re: New BR Course???
November 04, 2002 02:45PM
i like the idea of having holes so they are a par 4 or 5 in design, but still "3able" (from pro tees)

that way if you do make a three, you've scored an "eagle"

now that would be fun!! and a true test of skill...

pitch and putt is for recreational golfers and amateur golfers, imo.

pros tee layout should test pro level skills.

the USDGC is an excellent example of that concept...

to me, having to throw two drives is not a bad thing-- or a monster drive and a monster upshot-- just to get a chance at a 3...

the pro tees at greenwood and highland are a decent example of "non pitch and putt" design... if you can shoot a 54 on either course from the pro tees-- you be da man...

imo (in my opinion)
Re: New BR Course???
November 04, 2002 10:14PM
I'm new to this, but I think it's good to have a variety of holes on each course and a variety of cources as well.

If you have beautiful woods like Chicasabouge or that course over in Lafayette, then make a nice scenic course for all to enjoy. And if you have a lot of ground with a ditch running through it, then make another Highland!
Re: New BR Course???
November 05, 2002 04:46AM
Gotta agree with vl. No reason not to have multiple tees, one of which can easily be a pitch and putt (although fun and challenging for newer players). The other tees, however, should provide a greater challenge for more experienced players.

The course should have a good balance of long and short holes, and lefty and righty holes. Holes should test skills, and make you think about different types of shots and approach routes.

Risk and reward...as any of the touring pros...that's what it's about. John Houck has a nice series of articles on course design that are well worth reading several times:

[circularproductions.com].

Scottlandville Park sorta sets up like another Highland, but Highland rarely penalizes for bad shots.

This is an opportunity to design a world class course, with true par 3s and 4s (and 2s, for that matter). Think of Highland hole 3. A par three at about 190 ft. Now think of hole 4. A 590 ft par 3. Add the two distances together and you get gold tee hole 4 which is what? You guessed it: par 3.

Hole 4, for example, rewards those who can chuck it out there but it doesn't require accuracy. As long as you don't land in the creek, you're good to go. If, however, the fairway narrowed as you went longer, then the ability to throw greater distance requires an equal ability to throw with greater accuracy. This forces you to think about your game. Are you throwing accurate today? If not, you may want to play a shorter drive with a better chance of landing in-bounds. If you're feeling good, give it your best.

The game is about testing not only your throwing skills, but also your mental skills.

Scottlandville Park has a lot of potential. This is a chance to make a course that will make Texicans and others *want* to come to our big tourneys to play.
Re: New BR Course???
November 12, 2002 01:20PM
WEhat I ment when I said "fun" was a great challenging course with both short and long holes, but that challenge the golfer, not just make him have to throw it further. Courses that are long does not mean that they are good. Some long courses don't require any thinking, Mikey Mike, who throws a great long crushing hyzer, has no need for any other shot on some courses. Where is the fun there?

As for having par 4's or 5's or even 2's, it still really makes no difference. The am player will still be getting a 5, now par, but the open pro's will be getting a 3 still (hopefully) Wow an eagle! But what does it really matter?
Maybe we should go back to pro and am par's for each course? nah - just keep practicing and break that 54 at H-land!
in the long run, pitch and putt is more boring than an untoasted white bread and mayo sandwich.

longer holes that take initial placement and an upshot that counts-- makes a HUGE difference in ability.

non pitch and putt type courses help develop skills and "other shots" which in turn develops more skilled golfers.

what it matters-- is the challenge and the skill level it develops.

also, if a player is able to get an "eagle" when others would take fours and fives is more than just the difference of getting a birdie while others get the par3...

pitch and putt is not really that challenging. yawn.

there are TONS of pitch and putt courses in the region.

how many more of the same short-- "throw once and your putting" course designs do dg'er really need...

diversity is a good thing... pitch and putt is for novices.
jim
Re: New BR Course???
November 12, 2002 04:23PM
something i have learned thru the years , the most played courses are the short fun courses. until the game grows and the player base grows many times what it is now we do not need any longer courses than what we have . west mobile was a pro course and highland long tees ,any more than that and most players will not play them. the blue pro tees at muni in mobile never get played ecept during a tournament week.if you design a long course you better put in at least three set of tees. something else you can do is lay a course out and leave in your mind to leave room to flag a long course out during a tournament use only. if you will notice if g-m ,master am masters and ams have to play long tees they do not show up. the way our tournament are set up now is for ams ecept for a few courses that have several set of tees.time will come when we will need par 5-6 and when it does i hope they are design to where a shot has to be place several times to get to a basket, than just to throw 2-3 times strait at a basket.another thing when you do set up long tees the fun of the game still must be there , like the final shot to the basket and does it have a purpose other than air. something i think needs to be in our area first is to take the courses we have bring them to date ,look at every hole and see if it can be improved, do we have nice tee boxes, bulletin boards, benches, direction signs,info onlocal activities posted. what can we do to get new players to try this game we all love so much, now go ace one for me , jim
Re: New BR Course???
November 12, 2002 05:28PM
i'll agree that AM tees should be short....

but PRO tees should NOT be pitch and putt... in my view...

PRO masters should have to play the same tees as OPEN players-- if not it is nothing more than AM MASTERS playing for $

i can understand pitch and putt for Am Masters and Grandpa Masters-- but PRO MASTERS should be required to play the PRO TEES.... they are in a "PRO" division...

should PRO basketball players play on a high school height basket?
of course not...

i would estimate that more folks don't show up for reasons like-- schedule conflicts of other events on the same weekend -- or just plain can't make it on that weekend because of other stuff...

as far PRO disc golfers not showing up because of having to play a "PRO course" ... i find it kind of funny that someone in a PRO division would not want to play PRO tees...

jeez-- move to the grand novice division, already :^p (it's a joke)

or get some valkyries :^)
Re: New BR Course???
November 12, 2002 09:26PM
Side note:
NBA baskets are 10 feet, as are college, high school, junior high, and international. That was the worst analogy in basketball history :p
Re: New BR Course???
November 12, 2002 11:24PM
Jim's correct and Mr. Pitch N' Putt should move to Tejas.
Just MY opinion > RWC
Re: New BR Course???
November 13, 2002 07:42AM
yea, my bad on the analogy, crow.

duh.

you get the point hopefully. pros should play on pro tees.

maybe it would have been better to say pro basketball players shouldn't play in HS gyms with limited seating :^p

and this forum stuff is all just conversation, russ.

no one here is really right or wrong... it is a great place to hash out ideas...

btw, when i say long, i do not mean long for the sake of being huge and texican like.

moreso what jimo mentions, a well placed drive WAY down the fairway, an up shot that takes real effort and challenges the short game-- just to get to where you have a chance at a three.

and i'm not talking about every single hole on a course. i just feel we would all benefit from more challenging courses.

when i say pitch and putt, i am refering to the gazillions of holes in our region that once you throw a driver, you are looking at a putt pretty much no matter what...

i'm not saying short holes are bad. heck i play em all the time-- just that we sure have plenty of them in the region.

it just seems that a bit more diversity in course design would be a good thing for all of us to help develop skills...

and i am mostly refering to pro tees. all courses should have two sets of box tlocations... imo

make the am tees for novice / am level and make the pro tees more challenging...

USDGC course design is the wave of the future...
Re: New BR Course???
November 13, 2002 07:53AM
Jim and others,

I personally think the time has come for new courses to have true par 4 and par 5 holes. Not every hole, by any means, but perhaps roughly a quarter of the holes. In total, the course should provide a balance of longer and shorter holes, and the holes should require a balance of throw types (backhand, forehand, rollers, s-turns, right and left turns, tunnels, etc.), and account for both right- and left-handed players.

The holes should have a nice risk/reward balance. Take the high risk shot and nail it, high reward (say, a birdie). The low risk shot has less reward (usually a three, with only the rare birdie due to a lucky long putt). I've said it, as have many others, that the game is at least as much mental as it is physical. Forcing you to think about your shot choice and your abilities on that particular day should be a goal of most course design.

Greenwood #11 (the lake hole) is a good example of risk/reward. The straight-line to the basket is the shortest route, but the first shot must be well placed in the small area between the sign and the lake on the "peninsula." Then you have a shorter straight-line shot at the basket, but one that is almost entirely across the water. If, instead, you take the big left-turning drive, a much bigger landing area is available, with less chance of hitting water. You can now avoid the water almost entirely, but it's also generally tougher to get to the basket in a total of three strokes.

Personally, for at least the PDGA-sanctioned events in BR, I'd like to see the use of ropes to enforce more OB (you spray, you pay) on several of the holes at Highland (e.g., holes 4, 5 to name but a new). Hole 4, for example, could use a few well-placed obstacles to test the accuracy of your roller shot, as well as a narrowing of the fairway to test the accuracy of your crushing throw. If anything, retitle one of the Highland tournaments to "The @#$%& and Moan Tournament" and bring on the yellow ropes! =8)

Back to new courses: Yes, new courses should have multiple tees, to accomodate a variety of skill levels, or even to provide different challenges to the player who plays the course day after day. (I personally will play all three tees at Highland Park to work on different types of throws.) However, shorter tees do not always equate to the tees that are played most often. At Highland, the short blue tees are perhaps even less frequently played than the long yellow tees. The intermediate orange tees are played most often, by both new players and experienced players. Furthermore, Highland is *by far* the most played course in Baton Rouge.

Of the relatively few courses that I've played in the SN region (10 between Lafayette and Mobile), most seem to focus on shorter holes. That's fine for the most part, because they are surely not all easy holes. If a new course goes in at Scottlandville, however, the park has room to make a course that will truly be a championship caliber course for all players, including the top touring pros. Definitely put in multiple tee pads (and don't call the shortest tees the "novice" tees; too much stigma =8), but also build risk/reward into as many holes as possible, both long and short.

Thanks for reading my humble opinion.
Re: New BR Course???
November 13, 2002 10:13AM
I would like to put my 2 cents in even though they are not worth as much as most others 2 cents on this board. Courses should be flexible enough to allow new, amateur and women players to have a chance to birdie and ace and challenging for pros. Even more important imho is that courses should have an everyday layout then be able to be change to a tournament layout for tournaments so it evens the field for those who don’t play it often. That is one reason I am not gung-ho on concrete teepads. I would look to alternatives such as multiple tee-pad locations with some kind of soil stabilizer such as lime or soil cement added to surface which could be less costly to do in multiple tee-pad locations.

PS:
The difference in Pro, College and HS Basketball is court size, lane size and 3-point shot line.
Jonas
Re: New BR Course???
November 13, 2002 01:44PM
Amen to that brother!
misterbogey
Re: New BR Course???
November 13, 2002 07:49PM
Robi...your 2 cents is worth as much as anyone elses here...1/50 of a dollar...;-)

I recently started playing the Grand Masters division, maily cause I was old, not because I wanted to play in a pro division. Now I find that at some tourneys the GM's play from the pro tees for at least one round.

In reading Jim's post, he seems to think that the pro tees may be keeping some of the Grand Master players (and others) away. I'd like to get some opinions in here on that issue. Should us old farts play the pro tees?

Joe T
Re: New BR Course???
November 13, 2002 09:41PM
I think Jim is right . The major difference between Pro Open and Pro Masters is length off the tee, some Masters can hang with the Open players in length and if they want to play open they are free to do so. Most of your better Master players have better short games and better course management than the vast majority of Open boys. With age comes responsibilities ie. wife, kids, mort. , career, playing in the Masters div. is alot more laid back and fun. I agree that some courses should be lengthy, but its more fun when you don't have to throw your max distance drive on nearly every hole and tournaments at these courses will draw the most players.
Re: New BR Course???
November 13, 2002 10:31PM
yes, what is the fun if Mikey Mike throws a hyzer every shot and Will the Thrill gets jealous? :)
VARIETY is the hallmark of all the great courses. Short/long, tight/open, hilly/flat, lefty/righty, the greater courses will have numerous looks on the different holes.
I also agree with jim that the presentation of the course also attracts players---nice tee signs,concrete pads, manicured fairways, short walks in between holes, and nearby facilities are important factors in attracting players to a course.
Finally, most players like holes that have defined fairways at least ten feet wide. Three cheers to Lafayette for realizing this and removing a few small trees from Acadiana and taking some of the luck out of the course. what is the fun if Will the Thrill gets lucky and Mikey Mike's skills are blunted by a tree directly in the fairway?
Re: New BR Course???
November 14, 2002 09:25AM
I agree with Mike. You need variety. If one can throw 400'+, a course with all the holes under 300' wouldn't be as attractive as, say, Poplarville where you can get a few crushes in. Likewise, I can see where if you max out around 275' you would wear yourself ragged from the longs at Highland. With that said, ya'll come play Poplarville some time. It's got long, short, hills, water, wooded, and open holes.

Which brings something else up - Jonass, when are you going to get the rest of the tee signs up, you lazy !@#*.
Re: New BR Course???
November 14, 2002 10:46AM
master bogey,

as far as the really old fart division [:^p] playing pro tees, it would seem that the four or five competitors could get together at a tourney, come up with a consensus and approach the TD with a request to play whatever tees you guys want.

i do agree with whitey. diversity in course design is a good thing. however, i still maintain there are a (_!_)load of short holes in our region.
Re: New BR Course???
November 14, 2002 10:53AM
Hey Crow, When was the last time I seen you out here, August? Last time I checked, Shane and I spent a whole day doing course maintenance. So quit your whining and get your but up here to give us a hand!
Re: New BR Course???
November 14, 2002 12:39PM
Hey Mr. Pitch N' Putt, I agree with you on the short holes in SNDG and should have placed a <G> after my short response to your post.

I believe playing short courses actually hurts me when I play longer ones and have to make long approach shots which I rarely have to do here (Florence, AL.), Tupelo and Tishomingo.

I didn't have too much trouble at Bud Hill a few weekends ago, but Shelby Forest is relatively short also. I would like to see some longer holes on some of the courese, but I really don't care for courses that have nothing but long arm shots and little variety.

Russ C.
Re: New BR Course???
November 14, 2002 01:51PM
amen! We are lucky here in BR La that our two courses are very different. one open with some short some long and some inbetween, but through the years it has lost some of it's orrigional appeal. (hole 6 used to have two huge trees off the t-box so one had to split the middle) The same can be said for G-wood, it used to be much thicker and more wooded, but storms, BREC, and other phenominon has changed it as well. But they are different. What I want to do with the new course is have at least two sets of tee that people will play. (how often do the Reds at G-wood or the yellows at H-land really get played? only at tournament times) Then we can go in and keep tweeking it till we feel we have it right.

What law says to not mess with a course's orrigional layout? Laff didn't want to redo their front 9 because it was a Jim O design, but I've told them he just set the ground work for it, and it is there baby now. I say tweek the courses to get the desired effect. You will never make every body happy, but at least you can try to please the disc gods, and they will enlighten one on the path to ace-dom. (sorry my kids broke my train of thought, nap time is over, back to work)

Pitch it and putt it baby!!!
Blown Tire
Re: New BR Course???
November 14, 2002 03:50PM
I've lost track of how many times we've changed the course in Florence. There's one hole today where there were once four on the original front nine, which is really a front 11. We are constantly tweaking the course, expanding into new areas of the park that were undeveloped or wooded. We've had to adjust to storm damage and work done by the city and TVA. Each time, however, it's come out to be better than before. We would also like to have two tee pads for each hole on our new course, as well as multiple pin placements. This will all depend on how much money we can raise unless the city honors its commitment to actually foot the bill for the entire course, tees, signs, etc., like they have promised. Russ C.
Re: New BR Course???
November 14, 2002 10:57PM
All I'm saying, Jonas, is if I lived a hundred yards from hole 12 and worked fifty feet from hole 10, all the tee signs would be up. Tell me how many other people drove an hour and fifteen minutes to help put that course in and then you can call me a whiner.
("None - you're a whiner") Beat you to it.
vl
Re: New BR Course???
November 15, 2002 01:13AM
the pro tees at greenwood and highland get played more than the blues, and more than folks may realize...

the orange tees @ both parks-- of course, get more use-- although slowly but surely that changes... as players get better.

russ makes a good point about how the experience of playing longer holes helps a persons game... and that is what i was trying to get across originally...

not every hole need to be texicanlike... but not all need to be 200-300 feet either...

it is good to hear BT is open minded about how the new course will be designed.

dg clubs should be democratic-- or they are not a club... and that way more people get involved -- and it doesn't end up being one guy saying "i do what "I" want"

just opinions... i think it is a REALLY good sign that this forum has more use these days... REALLY good sign that folks care about their courses and the growth of the SN...
misterbogey
Re: New BR Course???
November 15, 2002 07:02PM
Right you are VL...the more opinions on here the better (cept. for those whiners...;-))

As for the new BR Course, I believe the people who will do most of the work on it will also be the more frequent players, so they should decide on the design.

It is good to get other opinions, especially those who will play in tourneys there, but ultimately it will be the locals who will get the most use out of the course.
Re: New BR Course???
November 15, 2002 07:56PM
I for one am glad there's actually people using this forum. The PDGA board is heavily used, but I'm always catching hell for not being current. I can't help it there aren't any PDGA tournaments in ALA and MISS anymore<G>

This is a great way to keep in touch with other golfers around the region and spread the word about tournaments.

But seriously, I will renew this year. There is another "southern" disc golf board, but it doesn't seem to get much use. It's geared toward golfers in Alabama, Georgia and Florida. They should include Miss. and La from the way things look here!

I'll post the address when I find it. RWC
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