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New BR Course???

Posted by Esteves Barlow 
skipper
Re: New BR Course???
November 17, 2002 02:41AM
I have to agree that variety is what makes a course appealing. This applies to both the short and long tees. WT is absolutely right about that. Jim is also right about the course being the reason people show up for tournaments. But hey, what does he know? He's only been around this sport decades longer than most of us. Hattiesburg, Chicasaw, Waveland, The Bogue. These are some of the most popular courses in the region. They get played so much because they're fun. They are also challenging and balanced to all styles.

I have to disagree with the amount of play the long tees get in BR. Aside from tournaments, I almost never see people playing the long tees at either course, and I play in BR fairly often. Actually, I have heard some pretty ugly comments about the red tees at Greenwood. Whoever designed them does not know how to design a disc golf course. To me, 500 ft. holes with a cluster of trees directly in front of the tee box is not disc golf. There's too much luck involved and they're too geared toward one particular style of play. I imagine that this was the reason they weren't played for LA states.

"Pitch and Putt?" Are you serious? Pitching and putting is exactly what players do on almost every hole. The only difference is that on the long holes, you're doing it with your second shot rather than your drive. That was the most assenine thing that I have ever heard. If you want to build some monster, nazi course, go get your own money and property and do it there. Don't use money and land that is intended for all players to force your own views about the sport on everyone. You sound like those guys who want to make the baskets smaller.

I also don't care what we call par on a particular hole. What difference does it make if the winner of a tournament shoots 2 down or 200 down? The same players always rise to the top anyway. Think about it. When you are playing in a tournament, and the guy with the card asks you what you shot on a hole, you don't say "birdie" or "par" or "bogey." You say "2" or "3" or "4." Right? A player's total score at the end is what counts. Your basketball analogy actually proves this point. The pros play on the same court that high schoolers do. They just do it at a higher level. And regardless of what level a player plays at, everyone has fun playing in the same dimensions.

The holes of this new course should be designed using the input of all players, not just one or two pvicks who elect themselves God and want to hide behind their arms and force their views on everyone else.
Re: New BR Course???
November 17, 2002 03:18AM
"I have to disagree with the amount of play the long tees get in BR.
Aside from tournaments, I almost never see people playing the long tees at either course, and I play in BR fairly often."

They're not played too often, but I do see them played on occasion outside of tournaments. My point was that the shorter blue tees are played even less. My wife is the only person I've seen play the blue tees outside of tournaments (and I play Highland *at least* four days a week while the country is saving daylight. This suggests that even beginning players are not always looking for the shortest holes.

"I imagine that this was the reason they [the red tees] weren't played for LA states."

Couldn't say why the whites were played instead of the reds during the LA States. I do know, however, that the red tees have been used in the past several Greenwood tournaments, including the LA Open and yesterday's Greenwood Gobbler. The State tourney seems to me to be the exception.

"If you want to build some monster, nazi course..."

Relax man, this is disc golf, not WWII.

"The holes of this new course should be designed using the input of all players, not just one or two pvicks who elect themselves God and want to hide behind their arms and force their views on everyone else."

A contradiction here, skipper? Not a single person has *forced* his or her view for *any* style of course. This forum is for the input of ALL players, and it seems to me taht people have been expressing a variety of opinions, and certainly in a more constructive fashion than your own. If you prefer shorter courses, simply say so. No need to call people pvicks. Bad karma man.
vl
Re: New BR Course???
November 17, 2002 09:37AM
so skippy, you've never actually played the greenwood pro tees, but you have an opinion about them?

hmmm... it would appear that folks who speak without the benefit knowledge, or first hand experience-- are utilizing ignorance or heresay as their basis of argument.

out of the many pros that have played the pro tees @ greenwood-- only a few have not liked them-- the vast majority have stated that they really liked them...

for instance, a NOteam pro, jeff, said more than once the greenwood pro tees are some of the best he's played in the region.... because they REALLY challenge the range of shots that a golfer has "in his bag" and not every tbox is an easy teeoff (as they were intended)

everyone has opinions. none make someone "more correct" than another person.

however, some people attack others, when discussing opinions, because they feel it bolsters their view- and makes them feel "bigger" or "better"

there is a term for this type debating tactic...
Re: New BR Course???
November 17, 2002 11:57AM
As one who played the Greenwood reds for the first time yesterday, I don't think there is anything there to @#$%& about. Most of the holes were still around 300 feet. The people in my group second round seemed more impressed with the 640'-foot hole with the cluster of trees than irritated by it. You should go up and play the USDGC layout up wherever that is. Try that, and then you will find it hard to complain about ANYTHING around this region.
Oh, and calling people pvicks while trying to force your own opinion on everybody is asinine, or assenine, depending on what dialect you speak, I suppose.
skipper
Re: New BR Course???
November 17, 2002 10:00PM
I never said that I hadn't played the red tees. How could I describe them if I haven't played them? Your "ignorance" and "hearsay" argument therefore doesn't fly. I have actually spoken to many players who said that they disliked the reds. Their comments outnumber the favorable ones about 10-1.

Also, I said that I "hardly ever" see people playing the long tees in BR. Your version said "not played too often." Wow. Repeating what the other guy says as a rebuttal to his point of view. I gotta try that sometime. I wonder what the technical term for that is.

I also don't remember saying that I preferred short holes. I don't throw 500 feet but my distance is respectable and good enough to par long holes that actually have fairways.

Goby. I understand your response to my post. Please believe me, however, when I tell you that mine isn't just a response to the other posts. It is based on things that people have actually done in the past, and not on hearsay. I surely don't do it to make myself feel bigger. Many other people know exactly what I'm talking about.

By the way, "pvick" was an intentional typo, in case the spell-checking MENSA guys didn't ketch that one.
vl
Re: New BR Course???
November 18, 2002 12:23AM
we must've talked to different groups of folks-- because the majority of golfers i've spoken to during the actual events at greenwood-- like the pro tees... and that includes three different divisions that have played them in the three events in which they've been played.

they are designed to test more than just one or two types of throws.

i can see where a golfer that has a limited arsenal of golf shots might have a hard time shooting a par round on those pro tees... perhaps that has something to do with the pitch and putt style of courses that are so predominent and folks not being accustomed to needing a wider arsenal of golf shots.

i disagree what you mention about the BR courses-- there are no 500 foot holes with a cluster of trees directly in front of the tbox... the vast majority of holes (on any course anywhere in BR) are fairly wide open from the tbox...

i do agree with you that many people should have input on the course design-- that is what this discussion is meant to be about... on one is trying to force opinions... just discuss how courses are designed...
Re: New BR Course???
November 18, 2002 05:21AM
'Also, I said that I "hardly ever" see people playing the long tees in BR. Your version said "not played too often." Wow. Repeating what the other guy says as a rebuttal to his point of view.'

It was agreement, not rebuttal, followed by a statement of my point. You're quoting the phrase out of context.

"I also don't remember saying that I preferred short holes."

I don't believe you did. I was referring to a statement I made in an earlier message that addressed several comments in this thread suggesting that DGers prefer shorter holes. I pointed out an exception. This is a message thread, not a message to message debate. Keep it all in context.
ripit
Re: New BR Course???
November 18, 2002 02:00PM
Skipper. Give it up, man. I agree with some of your pionts, especially that pitching and putting on the second and third shot rather than the first and second shot is the only real difference between long and short holes. I believe that variety has been mentioned several times on this thread, which is what I believe makes a course fun. However, the truth is that the " " guy and the "FACT" guy will never give you the last word. Here are two quotes to cheer you up:

1. "Spelling and grammar have nothing to do with good writing." - Mark Twain

and the more appropriate

2. "When a true genius appears in the world, you may know him by this sign, that the dunces are all in confederacy against him." - Jonathan Swift

Peace out, @#$%&.
ripit
Re: New BR Course???
November 19, 2002 12:04AM
Back to the top.
Re: New BR Course???
November 19, 2002 12:23AM
Short Arms of the World unite!
Honestly, if you guys can come up with some original holes that are under 300', I would throw all my virtually ineffectual support behind you. But just about everything you can do with that distance limit has been done.
Except for my "barn hole." I am still waiting for someone to build this one. It's about 300 feet, and the basket is inside of a barn. During the second round of tournament play, the main doors are closed, forcing you to bomb one in through the hayloft. Go ahead, admit it, I am a @#$%& genius.

But while we are quoting stuff, try this one -

"The meek may inherit the earth. The bold will go to the stars."
-Heinlein
TheZinger
Re: New BR Course???
November 19, 2002 07:58PM
"I imagine that this was the reason they [the red tees] weren't played for LA states."

Couldn't say why the whites were played instead of the reds during the LA States. I do know,


the reason the whites were played at the LA states was because that is what was on the flyer. BREC prints the flyer and unless the TD tells them to change them, they are going to be the same as the years before. Just think if people show up and have been playing the whites for practice(because this is what it had on the flyer) and the morning of the tournament they find the TD has changed them. People would be pissed. Whether or not the TD wanted to play the whites or not is not even an issue. The flyer was already out, so that is what we had to play
TheZinger
Re: New BR Course???
November 19, 2002 08:29PM
As far as course design.

Rivendale is a VERY fun course. It is a VERY challenging course as well. It is a course that makes me say to myself after a round, "I need to play again because I KNOW I can do better!!!!" If I played a course where every hole was like Highland #4, that wouldn't appeal to me at all. I know I can par that hole 7 out of 10 times. I know i can't birdie it(unless i get very lucky). So why would i want to play it if I know I cant do better if I can't thow 650'.
People don't play the blues at Highland because they are not used to them. Some people call them Girl tees(which I don't believe because i think they are good practice for your approach game). Newbies play the tees they are used to. I have been playing for about 9 years and i learned on the orange and i still play the orange the most. If the yellow tees were the only tees marked, then i betcha they would play them instead. As far as Greenwood; I still play the orange because I have yet shot a -13 or as far as that goes anywhere close to a -13. This tells me that this course still challenges me. I avg a -3!! I know I can do better. That's why I keep going back.

The perfect course is a course that i would want to keep going back to because it has beat me that day. It is a course that after a round I can say I know I can do better. The bouge in Mobile is a fun and challenging course. Municipal in Mobile is also fun and challenging. These are two different style courses, yet they are equally fun and challenging. Chickasaw to me has alot of non-challenging holes. Holes that nothing is in between the tee and the basket. This is a course that you could easily shoot way under par each and every day, which makes it not as fun. Cottage Hill is another Very challenging course.

My point is that to make a course challenging, yet fun, it needs to make you want to go back. If you have to throw 90 times to finish a round(par 5), yes it would be challenging, but would it be fun? If you had to pitch one about 200' with nothing in the way, would this be fun? NO! But holes about 230'(with trees in between for that EXCITING ace run) to 375' (for those big arm, but gotta have accuracy to get birdie) to me are fun holes. These would be the courses I would want to go back to the most because it would be very difficult to beat it each and every day.
ripit
Re: New BR Course???
November 20, 2002 03:46PM
@#$%& right, Terry! But you also have to remember that the park is what dictates the kind of course you can design. I have never been to the Scotlandville park (though I'm told that it's not the safest place in the B.R. area) so I can't offer an opinion as to what kind of course can be built there.

I don't see how longer holes offer a greater opportunity for creativity. I don't agree that it has all been done.

"Methinks the lady doth protest too much." - W.S.

This does not mean that I prefer short holes. As I have stated above, variety seems to be what most people prefer. It's what I prefer. Someone else up there said that people also like well manicured, clean courses. I agree with that as well. I think that Paul B. is a perfect example of this. Those nazis really know how to build a park. I'll give them that.

I only hope that the course will be designed using the input of all concerned players, and not just one or two guys who want it to conform to their own philosophy. I realize that multiple opinions could lead to a lot of bickering, but that's business.

"You know it's a fair deal when everyone at the table feels that they have given something up" - J. Paul Getty

I also like the point about knowing that you could have done better after a round. I know that feeling very well.

Okay, I really am going this time.

"Apres moi, le Deluge." - Louis XIV
Re: New BR Course???
November 21, 2002 02:12PM
I'm not up for the bickering, but I love input and CONSTRUCTIVE criticsm, and as long as one is non confrantational and willing to work as a group, come on in and let's make this the kick @#$%& course of the whole south!

The course / park has GREAT possibilities, actual elevation changes, a creek bigger than H-lands (and wider-more lost discs), almost too many park benches, gazebo's, and bridges (although one is washed away, and one needs to be added), and a walking path that runs all through the park. One major design questions is will we be able to "cross the walk path" with a hole, or are we going to have to use it as a "concrete stream". It will make a difference if we can. (better use of elevation changes, throwing twords the creek)

I did get hastled by the Man (not really "hastled") the last time I was there to show the Zinger around the park. They pulled up behind me, flashed their sirens, and asked "what you doin' round here son?" I explained to him what we're doing, and basically he said "good luck" and left. Ah disc'n in the hood.


Peace,

BT
ripit
Re: New BR Course???
November 21, 2002 04:10PM
Sorry, Will. I's actually not all that confrontational. We're just rippin' each other. Actually, Crow seems to be my kind of guy, probably also a "Triumph, the Insult Comic Dog" fan. That's why I know he won't be all that upset when I say:

Hey, you misspelled "I am a drooling idiot." It came out as a completely different sentence.

Anyway, why were you stopped if the place is a public park?
TheZinger
Re: New BR Course???
November 21, 2002 04:32PM
he wasn't really stopped. he was just sitting in his car waiting for me. the reason why the pig asked him the questions was because they don't ever see white people in that park much less one white dude alone. and maybe because he was just sitting there in his car<maybe thought he was dealing drugs or sumtin>
Re: New BR Course???
November 21, 2002 10:00PM
Ripit,

"I don't wanna talk to you no more, you empty headed animal food trough wiper! I fart in your general direction! Your mother was a hamster and your father smelt of elderberries!"

I guess the park layout could give you some room for creativity with some shorter holes, but I still say you will be hard pressed to invent something original. Maybe I am too well-travelled. I guess you could still do something that was original to the AL-MS-LA region. But you need to make some long holes so that maybe someone will be encouraged to lengthen their game a little bit. I think you are holding players back by not challenging them on distance.

Will, is the park big enough for say, 27 holes as opposed to 18? It sounds like a great place for a course, surrounding neighborhood notwithstanding.
Concerned
Re: New BR Course???
January 07, 2003 10:45AM
I've heard talk of the new course in Scotlandville, however, I do not think that is good place to put one of our new courses. This is only my opinion, but I don't think it is a very safe place to have one. I agree it is a neat park with different elevation changes, etc., however, it's not safe. They have found people dead out there!

There are way to many BREC parks to choose from, and I don't think this is the appropriate park to pick for a new course. Please check with BREC again and see if there are any other parks they would consider putting a new course in. There are several BREC parks in the South Baton Rouge area that would be much better, and most of all, safer. I'm all for a new course, we certainly do need one, however, we need to think of the safety factor first.

Go through the blue pages of the phone book under the BREC listings, and you will see how many different parks are in safer areas. All I'm asking is that we think before we jump out there and put a course in a very unsafe area just to have a new course.

Here are a few that I can think of off the top of my head: 1) Perkins Road Park (near Kenilworth), 2) Forest Park (on Harrell's Ferry), 3) Sharp Road Park just to name a few that would be big enough, and I'm sure there are more.
Re: New BR Course???
January 07, 2003 01:33PM
yo concerned,
It wasn't our idea to put a course there, it was all BREC. They were pretty adament about that is where they wanted the course, and didn't seem too gung-ho on other parks when I mentioned my concern about the safety of Scottlandville Park. To really know how many BREC parks there are go to brec dot com, there are even parks that don't have anything on them, and no way to get to the park.

My next goal is to go to Tickfaw State Park and talk to them about a disc golf course. If we can get the same deal in La state parks as Jim O got in Miss State Parks, then La could really take off.
Concerned
Re: New BR Course???
January 07, 2003 02:30PM
Will T.,

Did BREC say why they want the course put in that particular park? Is there even room for discussion with them about this? It seems like it would be a waste of tax dollars to put in a course if people are afraid to go to that park and use it for fear of being robbed or killed. I'm sure we would be safe if we had a big group of people, but what about our vehicles getting broken in to, and what if just a couple of people want to go play, that's when it would seem unsafe. I think BREC needs to reconsider this.

At any rate, thanks for the info and input, and I agree with the whole State Park issue, I think that is a wonderful idea, and I would love to see that happen some day. Mississippi has some great courses, and Paul B. Johnson is one of my favorites, it would be nice to have a State Park in Louisiana that is equal (or close) to Paul B. Johnson.
Re: New BR Course???
January 07, 2003 04:05PM
If you know anything about the course in Laff, you know that it was not the most desireable park to go to in Laff, but with the addition of the disc golf course there it has become a nice park, which is why they are loved so much by their park.

I'm sure that BREC wants the same thing to happen at Scottlandville, like it has at Greenwood. There was concern when it was first put in, but I have no qualms about going there alone, in fact I'm on my way there right now. I am with you though, I would love another course in a different park, prefferably (to me) one close to LSU to bring in the college people more. But where?

Rack Me,
I'm out,
BT
Re: New BR Course???
January 07, 2003 09:18PM
Will,
A good area to push the state for a new course would be in the Alexandria area.
I know of 2 disc golfers who come down from there every now and then to play in Lafayette. That area has plenty of terrain that would make a good location and I know the state has parks and property in the area being under utilized. just 2 cents
Aubvious
Re: New BR Course???
January 08, 2003 09:35AM
Isn't BREC meeting in the next few weeks to discuss how to redesign City Park? There is a lot of property on the North Side of Dalrymple that is not being used at all. We should be able to at least get a dual play 9 hole like in Metarie.
Aubvious
Re: New BR Course???
January 08, 2003 09:37AM
Also, has anyone talked to Ascension Parish or Livingston Parish parks? If we can't make Baton Rouge a disc golf town, then at least make the Baton Rouge Area a disc golf area.
Aubvious
Re: New BR Course???
January 08, 2003 12:12PM
From Baton Rouge Business Report today:

Better schools, now this:
Ascension Parish is likely to toss out more bait to lure East Baton Rouge residents. The parish is planning a 250-acre signature park. Backers say the impetus for the golf course-anchored "quality of life" park is to provide a recreational gathering place for those who already call the parish home and to boost a fledgling tourism initiative by attracting golfers from surrounding parishes. The park is planned on land between Gonzales and Sorrento, off Airline Highway. It is being pushed by President Harold Marchand, State Sen. Louis Lambert, public schools superintendent Robert Clouatre, among others. It would include a golf course, tennis courts, jogging and bike trails, a skate park, playing fields and a fishing lake.
Ascension Acers
Re: New BR Course???
January 10, 2003 01:49PM
A course in Ascension Parish or Livingston Parish would be great. Who wants to push for one at this new Ascension Parish site? I'm in!!!
TheZinger
Re: New BR Course???
January 10, 2003 02:54PM
Aubvious-
As far as any other BREC parks, the answer is a no. BREC has already stated multiple times that Scottlenville is the only park that they will consider. It does sound bad, but the land there is beautiful. It is a HUGE park.

Livingston parish has only one park that is a good enough size to put a course, but it is all already used up with somewhere around 7 ballparks. Denham Springs High School uses this park for it's baseball/softball games. I called the parks commision a few months ago about this.

As far as Ascension Parish, I couldn't find any park big enough for a disc golf course. This park you say they are building sounds good, but we don't know what the land looks like. I might give them a call to ask them the possiblities.
matt amond
Re: New BR Course???
January 12, 2003 04:00PM
its going to be at scotlandville parkway but its in a pretty bad area but there building a lot of airport hotels so that going to a good thing far as when were going to get it there is no telling i have to see it to believe it.
Ascension Acers
Ascension Parish Course??? (was Re: New BR Course???)
January 12, 2003 04:47PM
I got some info on the people to contact for the new Ascension Parish Park.
The head of PARC (Ascension Parish's BREC) is Bill Evans. His phone # is
225-675-6559
The consultant on the park development is David Young from D.N. Young & Associates. His phone # is
225-644-8605
The more people that show an interest in a disc golf course at the new park, the better chance we'll have. So call these guys if you want another course in the BR area.
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