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The real issue with bagging.

Posted by Gilligan 
The real issue with bagging.
November 17, 2011 12:48AM
Is that we have board members that no matter how many ppl say it is a problem (how many threads about this going on right now?) They won't vote anything in to effect because THEIR OWN opinion is that it is not a problem.

But I thought they were elected to do the player's bidding. *shrug*

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I got a rocking chair in my skin.
And every time the wind blows
It brings me down to meet the mood I'm in.
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Re: The real issue with bagging.
November 17, 2011 01:00AM
It's obviously a huge problem.
Re: The real issue with bagging.
November 17, 2011 04:57AM
Gilligan Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Is that we have board members that no matter how
> many ppl say it is a problem (how many threads
> about this going on right now?) They won't vote
> anything in to effect because THEIR OWN opinion is
> that it is not a problem.
>
> But I thought they were elected to do the player's
> bidding. *shrug*


You crack me up!! You and the last cohorts did change the rule to one that takes less time to return to bagging....... and playing in the same AM divison for 4 years is bagging as well, either that or you should find a new hobby..

*shrug*

Re: The real issue with bagging.
November 17, 2011 06:16AM
We actually discussed it in depth last night, Gilly.

We're taking little steps here and there. It was suggested last night to make a rule that players who win in their division at the SNAC would not be allowed to play that same division in the championships the following year.

As far as the season goes, the consensus was that TDs have the discretion to ask a player to move up to a division that is more fitting of their skill. However, I think we should have something worded that will give the TDs something to cite or fall back on when asking the player to do so. Instead of the TD just telling the player to move up, the TD could say, "You need to play the higher division based on X, Y, and Z." I figured it would give the TD more leverage and back up.

Right now, we're looking for feedback in those areas. Is that the route we should take? Is there a better solution?

_______________________________________________________________________________________________
Justin Tolbert
BHS Disc Golf [www.youtube.com]
Mobile, Alabama



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 11/17/2011 06:23AM by jtolbert.
Re: The real issue with bagging.
November 17, 2011 07:09AM
Justin,

I like your idea of having some leverage in writing for the TDs to combat someone who needs to move up. Personally I don't have a problem telling a player to move up in my tournament, as long as I know them and their abilities. The problem I see, is not knowing every single players ability and what division they should be playing in. There needs to be some type of grading system. It won't alleviate the baggers, but it will make it harder to bag. Was there any discussion on this at the meeting.

Ty
Re: The real issue with bagging.
November 17, 2011 07:14AM
Anything to the effect of ratings or rankings wasn't discussed.

You have a good point too. Some local TDs may not really know some of the out-of-towners. It would be difficult for the TD to know whether or not that player should be in a different division.

_______________________________________________________________________________________________
Justin Tolbert
BHS Disc Golf [www.youtube.com]
Mobile, Alabama
Re: The real issue with bagging.
November 17, 2011 07:42AM
That is where players should help police themselves. Bring it up before the start of the tournament, not after you get beat. Large events all winners should try the next year to move up, if they cash the next year they are ready to move up. There are a few players that just can not play in the pro level. That is what the 4 tournament of not cashing is for. SN should not run off players because they can not play at pro level. I can give you list of those players the next time you talk with me in person. There will always be a few unhappy players , but if about 97% are happy which do you go with. I have very seldom had anyone ask me to have a player move up. How many other TDS have had this ask of them. I suggested the 4 tournament rule for am-adv master , this could be a agreement for them to go by, great group of guys would like to see them agree among themselves and SN put back the am master division.Just my thoughts on how to get back to having fun.Please take time to fill all loop holes or SN will have more problems later.

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Re: The real issue with bagging.
November 17, 2011 07:58AM
TD's could offer the baggers in question to move up at no extra charge for a tournament. Then if they cash they are there and they cant say they dont belong.
Re: The real issue with bagging.
November 17, 2011 08:29AM
As a TD I only know players from my region, but if I were to get a player who decided to make the trip or is on vacation to play, I wouldn't have any idea who, what, when about him. Also, if I am registering 50+ players in a 1hr time frame, I have little to no time trying to look these guys up.
Players clearly are not doing the police work before the event starts. Its not until you see the name at the top at the end winning by 8+ strokes do you realize who they are and what they are doing.
Take J. Yates for example. He cashed 2nd to me at an event that Kittrell and I hosted. I saw him at Lee Nequin and assumed he was playing Pro, b/c 3 weeks earlier he played pro at Jonesboro *Another event I hosted* and he was one place from cashing.
Back to Nequin: I play round one and round two, but pay no attention to the whole field. So I feel I could take the blame b/c I assumed he was in my division since that is what he has played all year.
End result: The Handbook isn't completely finished and the 4 event cash rule is/was not in effect so the 6month rule was used for this incident. Leniency was given with hopes this doesn't happen again. Just need to get this Handbook set in stone.
Re: The real issue with bagging.
November 17, 2011 08:55AM
Head, what if he cashed? How would you pay him? Not fair to all the other pro player that paid full price but bagger gets a break, to try and entice him to move up.
Anonymous User
Re: The real issue with bagging.
November 17, 2011 09:00AM
This BOD is all talk and no action. Justin has been talking about doing something useful for over a year but he never gets anything done.
Re: The real issue with bagging.
November 17, 2011 09:10AM
I know JK has been working on the Handbook and he is in Florida (The Keys!!!) such a bummer lol. He will get this book completed ASAP. When he is busy.......he gets real busy. When he has down time......he gets things done.

I am one who likes to get things done *NOW* but have to learn to be patient too. SN will get it done one way or another.
Anonymous User
Re: The real issue with bagging.
November 17, 2011 09:18AM
Too bad JK has to do everything.
Re: The real issue with bagging.
November 17, 2011 10:08AM
The difference if he cashes can be taken from his winnings and distributed evenly throughout the other winners
Re: The real issue with bagging.
November 17, 2011 10:36AM
Watch out Mathew, you are making sense... they will probably get the lynch mob after you! ;)


Bob... name a SINGLE instance where the 4 tournament rule has been abused.

I find it ridiculous that time is being wasted on it at the meetings without any evidence of it even causing an issue yet. SURELY you guys aren't talking about going back to the 6 month rule. That was already PROVEN to be taken advantage of and abused!


Where is my monkey cartoon? "why do you guys beat up the monkey that climbs the ladder?" "I don't know, that's the way we've always done it!"

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Take me to the window and understand
I got a rocking chair in my skin.
And every time the wind blows
It brings me down to meet the mood I'm in.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------


SN Top25 Bag Tag database
BRDGA Top10 Bag Tag database
MADGA Top10 Bag Tag database
SFC Top10 Bag Tag database
Re: The real issue with bagging.
November 17, 2011 11:26AM
Gilligan Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Watch out Mathew, you are making sense... they
> will probably get the lynch mob after you! ;)
>
>
> Bob... name a SINGLE instance where the 4
> tournament rule has been abused.
>
>
I have seen your example of it costing a player money in 4 events. But 4 events is not giving something enough of a try and I am not saying the 6 month rule is the fix either. At least if a player truly tries for six months they have given it a fair go. Again providing they have played some events in that time frame....

A ratings or points system might be the only true way to know what divison a player belongs in, but who's going to do that

Re: The real issue with bagging.
November 17, 2011 11:43AM
We can agree on that... amazing I know.

I completely agree... IF they tried the division for 6 months that would have worked. But people didn't... people sat out.

4 tournaments can happen quick in some parts of the SN... but still at least they are trying.

My thought process is that since we don't have any way to move someone up (I wish we did)... then if someone is moving up to a higher level then they are probably WANTING to try that higher level out. So they will give an honest try. If they are getting their butts handed to them time and time again then this gives them the option to move down after a "healthy" try.

Four tournaments was a compromise that we came up with because some places don't have tournaments that often and 4 tournaments ends up being about 6 months as it is. It's even more for some people.

I was only one of 6 making the decisions so we did the best we could. People (such as yourself) were complaining about abuse of the 6 month rule, so we sought to fix the loop hole that you pointed out existed so many times. I understand it's not exactly to your liking but this is the real world and not everything is going to go the way you want them to. Roll with it. Besides it doesn't even affect you anyway. ;)

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Take me to the window and understand
I got a rocking chair in my skin.
And every time the wind blows
It brings me down to meet the mood I'm in.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------


SN Top25 Bag Tag database
BRDGA Top10 Bag Tag database
MADGA Top10 Bag Tag database
SFC Top10 Bag Tag database
Re: The real issue with bagging.
November 17, 2011 12:16PM
Quote
Bob
A ratings or points system might be the only true way to know what divison a player belongs in, but who's going to do that

I agree. It's not perfect, obviously, but I think it would be the most accurate thing. Didn't somebody volunteer to do it for free for a year?

_______________________________________________________________________________________________
Justin Tolbert
BHS Disc Golf [www.youtube.com]
Mobile, Alabama
Re: The real issue with bagging.
November 17, 2011 12:37PM
I can only imagine how impressive Matthew's ratings were, because I did not get to see them. Did you?

I still think we could have ratings if we had a dollars worth of bagging.
Re: The real issue with bagging.
November 17, 2011 01:04PM
move it back to six months and make it six months or six events which ever comes first. you have to at least play six times in that period to move down no not playing for six months.

Heres an easy fix. If you win a event in an am division you must move up at the same event next year. If you slide by a td then you are banned for six months. Easy and easy to understand

leo otto

here is an example, B hole has won what twenty events. He would have to move up at all the events. That will stop repeat winners in any am division. This would pretty much make him either advanced or pro masters at all of them events. Regular advanced I consider a move up. They are better players than their master division
Re: The real issue with bagging.
November 17, 2011 01:05PM
my ratings were almost the same as the pdga.

My pdga rating was 929 and my SN rating was 922

I was willing to do them but they were not going to be enforced so I didnt see the point in the effort.

Even if they do ratings or rankings no one is going to enforce them. That is the problem not bagging. The unwillingness to enforce rules. Every rule should be enforced. From falling putt to illegal substances during rounds to bagging if rules were there for it. The problem is that people only want to enforce the rules that have some outcome on them. I dont like being around pot smoking during rounds of a tournament and I will not put up with it anymore. I dont care what you do away from me but it will not happen anymore in my group.

Until we have the players and tds that will enforce ALL the rules why do we think this rule will be enforced.
Re: The real issue with bagging.
November 17, 2011 01:31PM
Matthew
I think rating are good for helping players place themselves and have good entertainment value. I would have like to have seen your rating done for some tournaments. If the SN ever got ratings I don't see them as being used as the requirement for what divisions players can enter ala the pdga, at least not for a couple years. If we did go that way I'd like it to be done with a system that has proven it's consistance over a period of time versus just being implimented. That also allows the players to have confidence in something like ratings as well.

JOhn k
Re: The real issue with bagging.
November 17, 2011 02:01PM
There it is. Matthew was only willing to do them if there was something to enforce (we had pre-existing ratings based divisions). JK is right, that is not the way. The way is to publish them a while for the edification of the players before we even think about having ratings based divisions.
Re: The real issue with bagging.
November 17, 2011 02:07PM
well go for it. you only want to do them if they give you a dollar a person. So your only willing to do them if you get paid.
Re: The real issue with bagging.
November 17, 2011 02:31PM
never mind. Simple fix if the board does not see that then they will not fix anything.

leo



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 11/17/2011 02:33PM by mobz.
Anonymous User
Re: The real issue with bagging.
November 17, 2011 02:32PM
Discjazz Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
>
> I still think we could have ratings if we had a
> dollars worth of bagging.

LOL
Re: The real issue with bagging.
November 17, 2011 03:58PM
head Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> well go for it. you only want to do them if they
> give you a dollar a person. So your only willing
> to do them if you get paid.


Absolutely. I did go for it. No TD has wanted ratings yet. Imagine that. We just don't have a dollars worth of bagging.
Re: The real issue with bagging.
November 17, 2011 09:11PM
i will use them send them if you can

leo.procraft@gmail.com or leootto6527@comcast.net


leo otto
Re: The real issue with bagging.
November 18, 2011 12:14AM
BRAD HAMMAC



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 11/18/2011 12:16AM by BERNIE.
Re: The real issue with bagging.
November 18, 2011 12:17AM
JIM ORUM Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> That is where players should help police
> themselves. Bring it up before the start of the
> tournament, not after you get beat. Large events
> all winners should try the next year to move up,
> if they cash the next year they are ready to move
> up. There are a few players that just can not play
> in the pro level. That is what the 4 tournament of
> not cashing is for. SN should not run off players
> because they can not play at pro level. I can give
> you list of those players the next time you talk
> with me in person. There will always be a few
> unhappy players , but if about 97% are happy which
> do you go with. I have very seldom had anyone ask

BRAD HAMMAC

> me to have a player move up. How many other TDS
> have had this ask of them. I suggested the 4
> tournament rule for am-adv master , this could be
> a agreement for them to go by, great group of guys
> would like to see them agree among themselves and
> SN put back the am master division.Just my
> thoughts on how to get back to having fun.Please
> take time to fill all loop holes or SN will have
> more problems later.
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