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Questions

Posted by dustin morris 
Questions
April 18, 2012 04:03PM
If i lose 4 pro tournaments in a row after cashing (or take prizes) before may 31, I will be eligable the SNAC or Adv for the SNDC?I already didn't cash in 1 pro tournament and won a trophy only tournament so i guess that counts as 2 that i havn't won money in.....Also...if i play advanced or intermediate in a dual sanctioned event...does that count towards one of my 4 tournaments that i havn't cashed in open??

Thanks,

(i posted this somewhere else but i think it would be answered faster on here.
Re: Questions
April 18, 2012 04:42PM
No.

I think the first relevant fact you left out is whether you accepted "money, or prizes in lieu of money" in a SNQ Pro event. I'm going to guess you must have else you would not be asking the question. If you did that means you cannot play Am without being reclassified.

Under 1.3 you have to play 4 "without accepting a finishing award" to be reclassified. It appears that after your Pro finishing award acceptance of money you played a second Pro event without accepting a finishing award then a 3rd in which you only accepted a trophy. You have not stated enough facts for me to determine whether the trophy was a "finishing award". If everybody in your division got a trophy I would conclude it was not a finishing award. If you had to beat somebody in regular play to get the trophy I would conclude it was a finishing award, requiring at least 4 more pro events after that to be reclassified.

However, even if your 3rd Pro event trophy was not a finishing award reclassification requires that you play 4 and not accept "in any and all Pro divisions in which the player accepted a finishing award". Therefore, playing in an Am division could not be one of the 4 reclassification is based on. That is why I conclude the answer to your question is "No" playing advanced or intermediate in a dual sanctioned event does NOT count towards one of your 4 tournaments that you haven't cashed in open.

Also, I don't know how you were qualified to play an Am division in the dual sanctioned event but it may be that rules the BOD intends to adopt would have allowed that and I know that is not your question anyway. Regardless of whether you were qualified to play an Am division in the dual sanctioned event, it could not be used to reclassify you or prevent your reclassification.

Of course my opinion matters not but that is how I read it.
Re: Questions
April 18, 2012 04:44PM
You'd still have to have 2 points in the eligible division.

_______________________________________________________________________________________________
Justin Tolbert
BHS Disc Golf [www.youtube.com]
Mobile, Alabama
Re: Questions
April 18, 2012 05:05PM
I agree with Justin's point, except that any Amateur points will do, so they would not have to be in "the eligible division". 2.7. It does bring out an oddity in that if you played a round in Rec that would be good enough for SNAC late entry whereas Pro points would not qualify.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 04/18/2012 05:08PM by Discjazz.
Re: Questions
April 18, 2012 06:51PM
The bigger question is why do you want to bag in the SNAC? JUST because its close to your home town is,a bad excuse/reason...the advance players have played all year for this championship and you want to be a johnny come lately to the party because its close to home?! Sad.........

___________________________________________________________________________
Keith "Sunshine" B.
Rumble in Ragley, version 1.0
15 November 2014
Field limited to 90 players
[www.facebook.com]
Re: Questions
April 18, 2012 10:30PM
No I am an advanced player that moved up BC no pros around where I live and wanted to compete with better players.....look at my stats and u can clearly see that I'm an advanced player....I won a trophy only tournament against my buddies and then I won a mixed doubles division wen we were the only ones there....I cashed in tupelo where Clayton beat me by 19 throws.....cashed in hartsell with 1 good round and 3 way tie for second and there was 5 pros in attendance....no advanced players will move up BC if they win $50 they r stuck in a division...

I think SN needs to work on this issue....in pdga u can take prizes and still play in worlds.....but in our little series if I accept cash or prizes I'm stuck in that division.....I understand we r not pdga but it seems like they got it going on and we seem to be going down hill....

Don't matter to me if I play or not.....just I have to go anyways with my fiance and might as well try to play...
Re: Questions
April 18, 2012 11:15PM
I was just addressing the rule application from the question. Since you asked I looked at your stats and only saw pro points - no am. It is a skill based system that disregards all skill measures other than finishing awards.
Re: Questions
April 19, 2012 12:03AM
How many events in a row have you not received cash? Do not include doubles events as they don't help or hurt you.

There is one or two thing the Board will have to look at about this. Key thing is you need to play 4 events that you don't cash as a Pro, then play one event as an adv player to qualify for the event. I think I was wrong with the turning down cash part but ill need to check on that.
Re: Questions
April 19, 2012 12:08AM
Not saying Dustin will do this, but you are telling me that a professional can just go out the last 4 tournaments and purposely suck it up. Play an advanced tourney to qualify, and play in the SNAC? Just doesn't seem right to me. However, this is the BOD's decision. Just doesn't seem fair to the Advanced players who have worked their hardest to make it to the SNAC to only be beaten by someone who should be playing pro. Interesting...
Re: Questions
April 19, 2012 02:36AM
Yes Cody its possible for a player to do that, however its going to cost them a good bit of money to do it. You figure $40 an event alone is $200 (adding in adv event) then cost of travel and all that. That part of the reason it was switch from the old 6 month rule, where one could simply not play and drop down.
Re: Questions
April 19, 2012 05:59AM
Didn't cash at Tishomingo and then won a trophy only tournament for cancer in hamilton.

Eric Day Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> How many events in a row have you not received
> cash? Do not include doubles events as they don't
> help or hurt you.
>
> There is one or two thing the Board will have to
> look at about this. Key thing is you need to play
> 4 events that you don't cash as a Pro, then play
> one event as an adv player to qualify for the
> event. I think I was wrong with the turning down
> cash part but ill need to check on that.
Re: Questions
April 19, 2012 09:30AM
i look at myself as a good advanced player in SN...im intermediate in PDGA....I like playing pro because i get to play with better people and rules usually arn't broken and i learn a lot. But it is causing me to not be able to find partner for doubles and other issues. If you look at my most money tournament, i tied for 3rd with jeff ma, that is playing advanced now. All of those other guys that i beat other than wammack (he had 8 throws on me and played like crap the last round) and sean portilla (was still healing from injury) were advanced golfers that moved up. And 3 of them are playing advanced again now...I do not believe i would be bagging if i got to play in the SNAC. I understand there is rules and i just want to go by them.

My personal oppinion, i do not think we need an advanced division. I think if advanced and pro players played together that most advanced would be happy with that rather than playing in a pro tournament with 5 pro players and no chance at winning money....our ranking system needs to be changed somehow b/c according to our rankings our top 2 advanced players from last year are playing advanced this year...and i dont really blame them for still being in advanced. There will always be bagging but having 3 or 4 people in your division at a tournament isn't that much fun to me because i like playing against a lot of folks.
Re: Questions
April 19, 2012 09:57AM
It seems to me the point of the finishing award standard is demonstrated skill not the value or form of the award. If there were no award there certainly would be no finishing award. However who can say a trophy is not an award? Since it is an award the only other question is whether it was for your finish.

Right now the Hamilton results show winnings as -0- for everyone in the open division. We would have no way of knowing you received an award right now but for your honesty. Perhaps the results will be updated, perhaps not. Kudos to you for exposing a possible rules issue and highlighting what we already knew, that our results publication is just not good enough to determine reclassification as a practical matter. However, since there is yet to be any evidence as to whether everyone else in the open division received a trophy, there is yet to be any evidence your award was for your finish. That you got a trophy is not enough. If I had to guess it would be that all 4 open players did not get a trophy, but we shouldn't have to guess and should not guess in my opinion. Perhaps time will tell and the season is not over. I imagine you know the answer to that question and will act accordingly. The other stuff you mentioned is fodder for rules change proposals and site improvements but not application of the current rules.
Re: Questions
April 19, 2012 12:12PM
I would say, on this particular issue, the fact the he won an event in open should disqualify him from playing advanced. If someone can win a pro tournament, I don't think they need to play advanced, just my opinion. Nothing against you Dustin, I don't think you would do this just to benefit yourself, but who's to say other pros won't follow in your footsteps if they are having a down year?

Also, since it was a trophy only event, he didn't turn down cash. That was not an option because there was no cash to turn down. So do we just assume cash would have been turned down?

This is an interesting topic.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 04/19/2012 12:25PM by codyroberts18.
Re: Questions
April 19, 2012 12:52PM
Me, Derrick and his brother hunter all talked about it at the tournament and we all came to conclussion that it would not count in a pdga event, so it shouldn't count in SN....SN has a few different rules than PDGA and Its confusing going by half sn rules and half pdga rules.....i know a lot of pros and advanced players that thought doubles counted on your am/pro status...we just need to make the SN rules more clear...not just on this issue.
Re: Questions
April 19, 2012 01:14PM
"since it was a trophy only event, he didn't turn down cash"

The problem with that argument is that turning down cash is only the standard for losing am status. 1.2.1. It is not the standard for reclassification. The standard for reclassification is "finishing award". 1.3. I can understand one might not notice this distinction but it is in the rules. We can debate what a "finishing award" is if you want to but I think the common language definitions in context lead to my conclusion and there has been no argument for any other yet in this discussion. If you accept the 1st place trophy because you finished 1st, and it was the only trophy awarded to the division of 4 it is a finishing award.

<[www.sndg.org];



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 04/19/2012 01:15PM by Discjazz.
Re: Questions
April 19, 2012 01:17PM
What if they payed out like a normal tournament and i took say.....$500 worth of discs(in place of cash) and a trophy...but since its only a trophy for 1st place it is considered a "finishing award"?
Re: Questions
April 19, 2012 01:19PM
i would think a finishing award would be considered accepting anything at all.
Re: Questions
April 19, 2012 01:37PM
dustin morris Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> i would think a finishing award would be
> considered accepting anything at all.


Agreed but only if it was for your finish. If identical trophies are given to everyone in the division then obviously your finish is irrelevant to your entitlement to the award. That is why I said the facts are not in, but I think we all are speculating correctly that this trophy was for finishing 1st, so it is a finishing award and it was accepted.

This trophy only event is not the event you lost am status in. So yes, you could have taken prizes instead of $158 cash on 09/11/2011 and retained amateur status and we would not be discussing how the trophy only event applies to reclassification. If the trophy only event had been your only finishing award acceptance in Pro you would not have lost am status by it and discussion of reclassification would have been unnecessary.
Re: Questions
April 19, 2012 02:07PM
I am just tryin to see if i just so happen lose 2 tournaments would i be eligable to play in the snac...i didn't think taking the trophy would count towards my pro status but after reading the rule for SN i would agree that even taking plastice instead of cash would change your pro status if you are in a pro division (according to the SN rules)....i am just trying to get the facts before hand...so if i play in it i wont finish all the rounds and they let me know after or during that i am disqualified....

I would still like to get majority of the BOD's oppinion on this if possible.
Re: Questions
April 19, 2012 02:11PM
I also think that no tournament should be turned in without accurate payouts and what the payout was to keep everything easier......
Re: Questions
April 20, 2012 01:14PM
Taking the trophy in the trophy only event counts toward your continued pro status if it was for your finish, but you became a Pro by accepting cash before that.

Taking plastic instead of cash for a finish once would not change ones status from Am to Pro. Taking plastic instead of cash a second time for a finish in a 6 month period would change ones status from Am to Pro. Once you are a Pro, you can take plastic instead of cash for your finish but for status purposes it is the same as taking cash. Your status remains Pro forever unless you play 4 in a row in the Pro division without accepting a finishing award.

Usually a trophy is a finishing award, but it is possible one could get a trophy just for showing up, and that would not be a finishing award.

Taking plastic, cash or a trophy can be a finishing award or an ancillary award, and it all depends on why you were awarded same. An ancillary award is not a finishing award. An ancillary award acceptance does not change your status or interrupt your 4 in a row for reclassification.
Re: Questions
April 20, 2012 01:56PM
Dustin, before you ask for TD's to do MORE work, please TD a tournament yourself. When I TD'd, I was fortunate to have a group of volunteers who handled results. Adding more work is completely uncalled for unless absolutely necessary.
Re: Questions
April 20, 2012 02:30PM
......posting all of the results should be a requirement...its not that much more work because most of the TD's post payouts during the tournament anyways...

Rinkelstein Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Dustin, before you ask for TD's to do MORE work,
> please TD a tournament yourself. When I TD'd, I
> was fortunate to have a group of volunteers who
> handled results. Adding more work is completely
> uncalled for unless absolutely necessary.
Re: Questions
April 20, 2012 03:57PM
We all like the scoring results posted ASAP. That alone is another chunk of work for a TD who is probably already worn out. Adding the money is another chunk of work that sometimes takes longer, even when the payout is posted during the tournament because that is just what was calculated from entry fees and maybe advance sponsorships. Then you have to consider tie splits, upward tweaking of the payout, new added cash, identifying who got CTP's and ace pots and such cause you can't add those to your payout for the SN unless the "who" is identified. Then there may be a bunch of other stuff that happened to the payout numbers. If you do it quick and get it wrong people will be all over you and you will promise yourself to never again be a TD. So delaying score results is a bad idea. Increasing the work or stress on a TD is never a good idea. Every player should be able to determine their own status with no problem after an event, if they understand the new rules as written. If you have not walked in a TD's shoes your opinion about the process is not well informed.
Re: Questions
April 20, 2012 06:09PM
I think that assumption of it being too much work for a TD is based on the person doing it. I have never TD'd a tournament, but have one in the plans for the fall. My opinion may change but I feel the same way about it as Dustin does. I know for a fact if a TD in my area can post results, payout, deal with 3 children, a wife, play in the event, and go to work the next week then any other TD can. Just my opinion on that.

So back to the topic at hand, so discjazz, are you saying that if Dustin won a trophy for 1st place and no one else in the division received one, that makes him ineligible? Also, since he accepted cash, he cannot move back down? The wording is just kind of confusing to me I think. This has been a good thread.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 04/20/2012 06:13PM by codyroberts18.
Re: Questions
April 20, 2012 06:23PM
I agree with dustin and Cody. I do TD and I don't have a problem getting the results sent in the weekend of. An I have a kid a full time job and also a full time student. If you take on the job of TD. It doesn't end until you have the results and fees sent in.
Re: Questions
April 20, 2012 07:29PM
An official rating system would fix all of this....just sayin
Re: Questions
April 20, 2012 07:39PM
Here we go again....there have been countless people, really only like 3 or 4, offer to do it for a certain amount extra. Not everyone wanted to participate. Let's not get this arguments started again lol.
Re: Questions
April 20, 2012 09:36PM
I like arguing. Especially when its about something I really care about. Ratings are the only reason I'd rather play a pdga tournament.
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