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Questions

Posted by dustin morris 
Re: Questions
April 20, 2012 10:03PM
If you like them, come up with a formula and compute them all from every tournament for free. That's the only way you will see ratings, do it yourself for free. Ask head, he has tried before to do them and was rejected if I recall.
Re: Questions
April 20, 2012 10:50PM
I know how to compute ratings, there is a formula on pdga.com. Id like to compare ratings among everyone else and see how other people and myself have improved over the years and there is an excitement about getting a rating and waiting to see how your rating will change when they are updated. I just got my pdga number and I'm already stoked to see how I will do. I just have to play unfamiliar courses to get pdga ratings. I think everyone would benefit from a rating system and I see no negatives about it at all.
Re: Questions
April 20, 2012 11:07PM
I agree with you 100%. However, there are many in SN land who do not agree. Compute them for free for everyone, then no one would mind it. It would be a good thing as I have expressed in at least 2 other threads, but no one wants to do it for free and no one wants to pay for it. That causes a problem. The only solution is to do them yourself. As dumb as it may seem, it's the truth.
Re: Questions
April 20, 2012 11:36PM
Some people are going to disagree with everything however we have to do what is best for the sn as a whole. We need to find out who has the resources to do create a rating system that can be updated and managed then find out how much money it would take to pay to have it managed. We could raise a little money to have this done. Give me some names and numbers on who can manage a rating system and has the authority to update them on the website and ill make some phone calls next week. Money talks
Re: Questions
April 20, 2012 11:48PM
Ask Head about it. Seriously, I am pretty sure he had it in the works but got it turned down. PM him about it and he can let you know.
Re: Questions
April 21, 2012 12:07AM
sndg.org

Read this. This is what I mean by no one wants them. People in SN don't want to be the PDGA, hence why they play in the SN. This thread is somewhat old but it reflects the current views of SN members still I think.
Re: Questions
April 21, 2012 01:14AM
Ratings wouldn't make the sn "pdga". Some things are adopted because it is better for the sport. Seems to me the only ones that spoke up were the ones who disagree about spending money. I understand that most disc golfers around here do not take the sport as serious as some of us but I don't see why people would care if they have a rating if it doesn't cost them anything. No the sn isn't the pdga but look where all but a few of your Professional disc golfers play. The sn is good but has room for improvement and I will continue to play sn tournaments but I would love to see it grow and change.
Re: Questions
April 21, 2012 03:03AM
I'm glad to see this thread drifting.

I'm not saying anything about Dustin's "eligibility" or "move back down". Those words are not in the relevant rules, I have no say over Dustin and I don't have all the facts. My first post answered Dustin's question as far as I can tell. If not then I don't understand the question.

Result posting
You win. Have at it.

Ratings
Thanks for recognizing my $1 thread.
Re: Questions
April 21, 2012 08:41AM
It is a good one. I think we should have ratings too, but no one wants them here. That is what I try to point out.
Re: Questions
April 21, 2012 08:43AM
Yes Derrick. I agree with you on ratings. Disc jazz offered to do it for a dollar. I offered to do it for .25 cents a player. An guarantee the money go back into my tourney payouts but was turned down. Everybody wants something for nothing. Well that's not how the world works. I did ratings for every tourney for a year and a half to to my own research and still have the info and still rate every tourney I play. I may start rating my tourneys I TD



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 04/21/2012 08:47AM by head.
Re: Questions
April 21, 2012 01:21PM
It does pain me to see that old thread because that was back before I realized pasting directly from my word processing software was generating garbage characters. So, for those who want to know how I calculate ratings:

Players with an official PDGA rating above 799 available on the PDGA web site at the time I calculate are propagators. Propagator scores are used to calculate the difficulty/rating/SSA of the course for a given round. Each propagator's score and PDGA Rating factors into a Scratch Score (SS) for the round. The propagator SS's are then averaged to calculate the SSA or course rating. The SSA is then used to calculate each player's rating for the round.

These are the formulas I use for the SSA or course rating:

SS = (propagator's score for the round) - ((1000 - propagator's PDGA Rating)/10)

SSA = (sum of all propagator SS's) / (number of propagators)

Then everyone who played the same course the same round gets a player rating based on the SSA. The formula for that is:

((SSA - Player's score for the round) X 10) + 1000

If there are only 10 propagators and they all have 1000 PDGA Ratings and shoot 54, the SSA for the course is 54.

If the course is rated 54 and you shoot a 60 your rating is 940.

Now if you want ratings it is up to you. No excuses.
Re: Questions
April 21, 2012 10:51PM
I do want ratings but not just for myself. Ratings clearly define a disc golfers skill. You can look at tournament results all you want and compare how someone has done against other competitors but that still doesn't tell you anything about their performances if you are unaware of how skilled the other competitors are. Also it would give people an idea what they need to expect to shoot on an unfamiliar course. They could compare their rating with the ssa of the course or other similar rated rounds shot on the course in other tourneys. Anyways if the majority doesn't want em then I guess it'll never happen I just think people are uninformed on the advantages and are reluctant to change.
Re: Questions
April 22, 2012 01:31AM
"ratings ... I guess it'll never happen"

That is my guess too but it is not because of what the majority wants. The majority could not stop ratings even if they wanted to. The problem is only that there is not one person motivated to do it. You are either that person or you are the reason we don't have ratings.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 04/22/2012 01:33AM by Discjazz.
Re: Questions
April 22, 2012 06:26AM
Instead of it being one persons job, wouldn't it be easier if the ssa of every course in sn land was calculated then the Td could easily put them in when entering the scores for the tournament? I do see it being a problem if it is one persons job for all of sn. Like you said if the ssa of a course is 54 and I shoot a 56 then the Td enters a 980 in the extra slot when entering results. Also maybe someone with some programming skills could figure how to make the system constantly update your overall average rating. I have a friend who could write the program if this is ever approved. If the td's ever agree to enter them in when entering results the program would do the rest.
Re: Questions
April 22, 2012 10:38AM
"if this is ever approved"

This is the attitude I do not understand. Why are you looking for approval? Approval is completely irrelevant to the task. If you want ratings just do them. Recruit as many people as you want to help. Why complain about other people not doing what you won't do either? If you don't personally see to it that we have ratings you are the reason we don't have them. There are no excuses, just people who don't think ratings are worth the effort.
Re: Questions
April 22, 2012 02:13PM
Imaginary interview by KL with MG (head), RE: Ratings:

KL: Is it true that you calculated ratings for all SN events for like a year and a half?

MG: Yes, at least almost all SN events.

KL: Why did you stop?

MG: The SN board would not approve their use for division placement purposes.

KL: So you were able to calculate the ratings without any approval?

MG: The board approved me calculating them.

KL: If the board had refused approval how would that have stopped you from calculating?

MG: I guess I could have done them anyway.

KL: So then, you did not need approval to calculate the ratings did you?

MG: I guess not, but there was no point in continuing.

KL: Did you think your ratings accurately reflected player skill and course difficulty?

MG: Yes. Not perfect but pretty close, like PDGA ratings.

KL: Did you think they would have been useful without approval?

MG: Yes, but not enough to be worth the effort without using them to set divisions.

KL: Did you publish those ratings for everyone to see?

MG: No.

KL: Why not?

MG: Because the board didn't approve them.

KL: How did lack of approval stop you from publishing them?

MG: Well I guess I could have, but again without approval there was no point.

KL: How did you expect the majority to believe in your ratings without seeing them?

MG: I expected the board to believe in them.

KL: Did the board believe in them?

MG: I don't really know because they never voted on it.

KL: So you could have kept going and published them too?

MG: I could have but it just wasn't worth the effort.

KL: You could rate every SN round now if you wanted to couldn't you?

MG: Yes I could, and I might do them again for the events I direct.

KL: What would be a better way to sell people on ratings than publishing them for 2 years?

MG: I don't know. Maybe an unfunded mandate?

KL: Hasn't the No Child Left Behind education act been a partially unfunded mandate?

MG: Yes I think that is correct.

KL: Did it solve all of our education inadequacies?

MG: No.

KL: Have I wasted your time with this interview?

MG: Yes, but that is what you always do with your confusing lawyer talk.

KL: Thanks.

MG: Why don't you do them, you know how?

KL: Same reason as you, not worth the effort.

MG: Well either put up or shut up.

KL: Ok, but other people who won't do them keep asking other people to do them.

MG: Whatever. Go tell them to put up or shut up too.

KL: Great idea, but I tried that and it didn't stick.

MG: Ratings are a zombie issue.

KL: Ok, but Morpheus still thinks "the one" is coming.

MG: Whatever, I've got work to do if you don't mind.

KL: Ok. Thanks again.

MG: You are not welcome. Don't ask me about ratings again until "the one" appears.

KL: Fair enough.
Re: Questions
April 22, 2012 02:37PM
Haha thats pretty amusing. Your lawyer talk doesnt bother me.
Re: Questions
April 22, 2012 10:03PM
Hey head, you have ssa score (1000 rated round) for most the courses in sn land?
Re: Questions
April 23, 2012 10:47AM
What you are proposing is a static (always the same) SSA. That would make the task a lot easier because propagator info would not be needed. PDGA ratings, my ratings, and I'm pretty sure head's, use a dynamic SSA. The SSA is recalculated each round. The reasons for not using a static SSA include that for many courses the difficulty can vary greatly depending on which pin positions and tee boxes are used. For example, at The Rez, the SSA could probably be anywhere between 48 and 60 depending on the round layout. It is also believed the weather could skew results with a static SSA. Using a dynamic SSA fixes these issues but it does require a lot of work to collect propagator ratings at the time of each event, especially using general public access to the PDGA ratings database.
Re: Questions
April 23, 2012 10:58AM
I think majority of people in SN would like to have a rating....just a lot of the older folks that post on the forums do not like the idea of having ratings....Maybe we should have a paper sign up vote at the championships to see what people would like and then go from there? If interest is there then we can work that direction and if not....just shut the idea down....Maybe also have a vote on buying memberships aswell.
Re: Questions
April 23, 2012 05:51PM
I knew the ssa was dynamic I was just asking for the the base ssa. This is also another reason that ratings are not just up to one person as you said before. That "person" would have to contact every Td of every sn tournament and get the info for temp holes, pin positions, tees, etc. Do you think one person does the ratings for every pdga tournament? Of course not, it would be way too much work. There are ways to even the load. Me and my friend are working on a program this weekend and I will get back with everyone next week.
Re: Questions
April 23, 2012 06:09PM
No you don't need any of that stuff for dynamic SSA. All you need to know about the course is who played the same layout as the propagators. In fact, it is only for the static SSA that you would need to know temp holes, pin positions, tees, etc. in order for the SSA to have any value.

Chuck Kennedy still does the PDGA ratings as far as I know. The formulas are his and in a spreadsheet. The ongoing work is mostly data entry, but the data you listed is not part of my formulas, his or heads as far as I know.

Fear not, Morpheus still thinks you are "the one".



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 04/23/2012 06:11PM by Discjazz.
Re: Questions
April 23, 2012 06:18PM
I agree with DJ on the one. I use Dynamic SSA. To use any other kind would not be very precise.

Take the REZ

70 degrees sunny with no wind plays a lot diff than 40 degrees cloudy and 25 mph winds so say a 45 on the first is a 1000 rated round. Where a 50 could be on the other conditions
Re: Questions
April 23, 2012 07:47PM
"the ongoing work is data entry"...so who does the data entry in the pdga?
Re: Questions
April 23, 2012 08:31PM
Cgkdisc on dgcoursereview and on this forum can tell you all about it. Afterall, he is the man over the ratings. I'm not gonna name drop but you can fill in the blanks. Send him a PM and he will enlighten you.
Re: Questions
April 23, 2012 08:46PM
Your first meeting with the Oracle.
Re: Questions
April 24, 2012 07:06AM
How come people do not get in trouble for playing down when they are not eligable?
Re: Questions
April 24, 2012 08:13AM
Elaborate?
Re: Questions
April 24, 2012 09:21AM
Like one of the guys that won advanced doubles in jackson TN cashed in a pro tournament and then played that...i didn't do much research on him but he has a wierd name so it could have been misspelled or something...there has been many instances in the past but you mainly only get punished at larger events.....i have seen bill mcarty go by the rules and DQ a player but that is the only one i have seen.
Re: Questions
April 24, 2012 10:21AM
Wierd name as in i have never seen anyone with the same last name.
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