I wanted to get this out there and see what others are thinking.

I am hosting events along with many new and experienced TD's. A lot of TD's are sanctioning their events both SN and PDGA. I have since learned that it is causing more controversy than expected. There are some people out there who are extremely against the PDGA and willing to raise hell about it! Can I ask why?
I again will say, I am not bias to either cause I seriously want to grow Disc Golf in a positive way and see no reason to be against either series like that.
Do people need to grow up? People set in their ways will just be that way and hateful no matte what, but I wanted to hear some honest thoughts.

Go

I am in the same boat as you....I think its some of the older crowd that doesn't like pdga...maybe from past experiences?.......I like them both....

It's all about where the $$ goes and what support the tournies receive from the PDGA in return........NONE.........


Ya'll can pay $75 a year for an old news bulletin if that floats your boat - return on investment with a pure lack of financials that back where the hundreds of thousands of dollars go.......thats a good bit of the problem with the PDGA.

They cancelled a tourney in Memphis years ago - THE DAYBEFORE THE TOURNEY......that did it for Memphis. (I'll let someone else provide background on that).....

Our "new generation" also has sought to run some PDGA events......they are well attended (but the $10 more to be able to play in a PDGA event actually works harshly against the turnout) - they usually seek to limit their fields so that issue isn't "obvious" - but only the SN events have the huge turnouts as all feel comfortable to participate. I've seen TDs seek sponsorship to cover PDGA sanctioning fees and non-PDGA player fees - that helps, but still the monicur PDGA is shunned by a good number of DGers.

Memphis has long been the a SN town....and while change (dual sanctioning) is good, the lack of value for the $$ that the PDGA expects is just not there for the recreational disc golfer......if you are a Pro (and they are FAR OUTNUMBERED by recreational players) the value may be seen as different.

Oh, and the ratings "argument"......that much like the SN points race - it means something to a huge minority - sure it would be great to have ratings, but unless you can provide them for free there aren't many out there willing to PAY for them......


These our my thoughts only.....not Memphis' or any other groups.......my 2 cents........Griff

More people that play disc golf tournaments pay a membership than not in the world.....i would pay for ratings if it was offered...my membership for pdga cost me like $40-50 for a year and 2 months...if i have a problem coming up with that....i don't need to be golfing at all in tournaments...

Disagree about more than not...^^^^^^^

Got any stats to back up that claim?

And..don't turn your nose down at players that are less fortunate. Just because you can waste $50 for a membership, doesn't mean that everyone can...or even wants to.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 05/02/2012 02:09PM by wayneacree.

How about we not make this a personal topic today. I want some honest answers about why you have a problem with either series.

As Brian stated, it seems to boil down to a few ideas.

Money
Membership/Penalty for not being one
Support for tournaments

There's a problem in anything and everything for sure. PDGA has many of them..........Do you think SN has any?
I like that SN shows you where the money goes and John is doing a great job posting the info.

PDGA went from saying "pay an extra $10 if not a member" to "Get a $10 discount on your entry fee if you are a current member" It's exactly the same, but people view it differently. Where does it all go? I am tired of worrying about that. It cost money to make a business or series work. Deep inside there are many players out there who would love to get paid full time to do disc golf. What you do with that time is another issue.

"what support the tournies receive from the PDGA in return" -Brian
Can you explain? Turn it around also, What support does SN give to your tournies as well? Money back to the championships, points to play in that championship, and possibly to win a points race. Anything I am missing?

Next question: Does the SN provide any advertising for companies to the players? Do you hear about any of the players or good things about events on this site other than a forum? Do you get to read articles about something great that may have happened at an event? Any tips on how to play disc golf with instructional videos?

On the PDGA side: As a player, you cannot get recognized to earn a sponsorship unless you compete well in a major PDGA event. Why? Because companies are standardizing their efforts through the PDGA. I have asked countess times about it. Why can't Matt Orum, Cam Colglaizer and many other popular players in SN get sponsorship. Matt O. has won the SNPC many times. We should be advertising that like crazy each year. Big Picture, interview, and more!
Ratings help with sponsorship and everyone knows that by now, no need to complain, it is what it is. A lot of people care less about them, but a lot of people do.
Memberships: Where does that money go? Well if you don't play PDGA events or have them to play, you don't need one right? Simple fact. They send all Major events a couple of $1000 to add to that event, they do send money to Worlds, and now the PDGA Championships in Georgia. They have a PDGA TOUR that the PDGA send money to and promotes. They send their staff to these events to oversee the rules of play, promote, give interviews, etc . . . . Are we jealous a little bit of that? Mad that they are spending money to send people to these things and we see them as vacations? What if we sent our BOD members to something and had them do the same thing? Would we feel our money is worth it? I would, I wouldn't mind paying John Kittrell to travel SN land and promote SN as much as he could. Give interviews. Does anyone know that JOHN puts up $200.00 Cash to any event he attends for SN Bag Tag Holders Ace Pot?
PDGA has a points race as well..........$10,000 payout bonus money at the end of the year. Not too bad either. Speaking for the professionals of course on that one.
Your PDGA Sanctioning fee covers the cost of the insurance *which I have said before SN needs to jump on that* and they make a profit there as well, but more importantly the PDGA provides us with INSURANCE! It won't take long before ALL State parks make this a mandatory thing for events!

I'll stop there cause this is getting long. Remember these are thinking topics here. I don't have a deep history in SN or PDGA so I am less worried about what happened 15-20 years ago...........it's the new age of disc golf. Has nothing changed?



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 05/02/2012 02:41PM by Trackin01.

On a side note: This is my 4th year to TD the Arkansas State Championships and I sanctioned it with SN and PDGA. It hasn't been PDGA since 1994 or 1995ish. All of the old heads from the 1980's, 1990's and early 2000's are having a major problem with it.
From what I understand: It has been said that the Arkansas States is one of 7 original events that started the Southern Nationals and was to be known that it is to be sanctioned by SN. It is part of the SN tour. How dare "I" sanction it with the PDGA. C'mon now.......that is a bit silly! What is the SNTour? Didn't know we had one. You just can't please everyone that is for sure.

You get what you pay for...nothing in the world is free...Except one thing and a lot of people don't believe the same way as me :)

Look, it cost $22.00 to play intermediate in the AR States in 2010. This year it costs $40.00. In 2010 there were four rounds. This year there are two. I know that costs will vary from year to year, but a big reason for the increase in price is the PDGA fee. Is the PDGA also the reason it was cut to one day - I don't know, I'm just curious. My deal is, I'm a casual disc golfer. I don't dedicate enough time to reach "professional," and feel like PDGA is just a lot of formal baggage for something that's recreational to me. I personally don't care whether it's PDGA sanctioned or not. I am kind of shocked at the increase in price and decrease in rounds, though. I just don't get it.

I know that you cater more to the PRO crowd, and that's OK. It may explain why the PRO entry fee is $36.00 less this year than in 2010. I personally, having only played disc golf since 2008, always saw the SN as more of an amateur/recreational/developmental circuit (no offense to the SN, I think that is needed - and there are great disc golfers in the SN) than as a professional style organization. The difficulty you are having here may have more to do with your direction with the tournaments catering toward a pro level crowd, when your audience with the SN is closer to an amateur level.

I'm not trying to critize, but trying to help you see my point of view and explain why you may be getting some push back. And, I could be entirely wrong.

For the record I am not one to promote controversy but here are my thoughts as a player and also td.....sn is a series mainly for the casual golfer tht is looking to have a good time playing(hints the playing tourny rds shirtless w beer in the bag w music playing). Pdga series is for the more serious golfers looking to elevate their game to the nxt level. Their are few exceptions to tht generalization but for the most part this accurate. In my location(Shreveport) I only make my events sn qualifiers to attract more down south golfers who generally care more abt tht series. I actually lose money by doing so bc most of my players either live here(they will play either way) and east tx golfers who play pdga series. I don't want to exclude or shun my own staters away from my events bc I want to see everybody happy enjoying playing the sport bc tht is the ultimate goal. I have big plans for my golfers in my city and unfortunately I feel sn will only take my serious competitive golfers soo far. As a player I prefer the pdga series bc it will/has taken me further and exposed me to better competition. I will forever support both series' as I play equal amount yearly and host dual sanctioned events to please everybody. I do agree tht the pdga membership costs r quite high for what u get but it is what it is ya know. If matt Orum had never gone on pdga tour and never got 3rd at worlds and strictly stayed inside of sn land he wouldn't be a bleep on the radar. Same w Eric Tracy back in the day, mike "the worm" young, Cameron colglazier, nageeb Laborde, etc. All of these guys now have worldwide respect and recognition for their hard wrk and talent. So I will leave w this if having a good time w good friends while enjoying the sport we all love then sn is perfect for you but if you want to get worldwide respect then pdga is the way to go. I say play both and support both and just enjoy the sport :-) thts all

discdawg - you are correct. the SN is more the Rec style/Lets have Fun Atmosphere. Ive been reading all these topics on bagging, on ratings, on you name it..here is what i see as possible solutions.:

1) Create an optional paid membership. i say optional because there are so many people inside the SN who are stuck on their beliefs that no matter how much time and effort you put into it, they aren't going to budge from their stance. That being a (sad) fact, we have to give these other people who actually want change the option for change. With a paid membership you could have a ratings system that would offer insight into your game and, even possibly in the future decide what division you play in(similar to PDGA). Also, it would help with the "high tech" things that need to be implemented -

"manglin Wrote:
> Start by assigning unique ID numbers to each
> participant - this aids with points assignment.
> Next create a system where a SMS message can be
> sent by the TD at sign up time. The TD would
> submit the player's unique ID and the system would
> send a SMS response that informs the TD (and
> player) which division the player must compete
> (say "Adv"). The player could always play up.
>
> In the backend, the system calculates the response
> based on a set rules; whether they be ratings
> based or based on how you performed in the past. A
> rule like the "4 tournament" rule is an example.
> Others can be defined.
>
> Also if a player has not played, he has no ID, so
> it's up to the player. If a player wants to skirt
> the system and provide a phony ID, his points will
> be awarded to that ID.

-This was taken from another thread, but theoretically, it could work. You could even do the IDs without a membership. Kind of like a Gold and Silver Membership on XBOX Live. Different tiers of membership. And maybe in the lower tier, more of the money goes toward the championships.

2) We have a BoD. Maybe we create a few sub-committees. These sub-committees could enforce SN rules (instead of people just calling someone out on it on here and nothing being done about it) and suspend players, bring in new advertising markets and sponsors, travel to and film tournaments to post online to get the word out on SN, hold regional camps for new or season disc-golfer and bring in top pros to run them.

The possibilities are endless...but without #1, this is worthless. If we want to bring respect back to the SN and grow our sport that we love, we have to do more. we can throw these ideas around all day, but until we put our wallets where are mouths are, we will continue to argue and run in circles. Realistically, does anyone think we can grow without financial support? If you do #1, then number #2 falls into place and you then have reoccurring income and can maybe lower prices for membership in the future.

The people that disagree with this will always be on the outside looking in. I understand the tradition and the reasoning behind your lack of bending, and im not trying to convince you otherwise. I hope that you will at least hear us out and respect that the change we want is not for worse. We are trying to grow the sport and bring recognition to an amazing tournament series that right now is the laughingstock of the disc golf world. We want our tournaments to be remembered for their amazing golf and huge payouts, not their controversy.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 05/02/2012 04:19PM by JshDvd.

So would it be an issue to do the Pdga portion of the event for just the Pro pool?

Discdawg- Glad you made the points you did and especially about the Arkansas States. You only mentioned the 2010 Ark States in your topic and I understand it. That year Arkansas States had a $13,000+ payout tournament. Lets dive in: The Men Pro Open had a $2500 first place price to try and hit. Plus another $1000 added to that division. Which is why the entry fee was $100.00 that year. This event was a SN sanctioned event and it was unheard of to charge $100 for MPO, unless you have ever played a big PDGA event. Where all major events are $100+
I also added $1000 to all other divisions as well to boost those divisions too.

I know that you cater more to the PRO crowd, and that's OK. It may explain why the PRO entry fee is $36.00 less this year than in 2010 -Discdawg
On paper it may look like this, but in the end lets dive in: During the 2010 Ark states I was able to gather so much extra money that I gave 1st place Advanced and 2nd place Advanced the same payout as Intermediate 1st and 2nd place. What did they get? Disc Catcher Sport for 1st and Traveler Basket for 2nd! Plus, I didn't take one dime away from the entry fees..............something I have yet to do. I seek my local city for help which gives me money to pay for players packs. I choose to keep the money in the divisions for good payouts.
I based my 2010 entry fees from 2009 in the Amateur Divisions. In fact Advanced Men was a bit less in 2010 than 2009.

In 2011, I raised the entry fee a bit to have a better payout in the Amateur divisions. I was wanting to pay out a least a quality disc for last cash instead of a simple DX plastic. So I increased it to Adv: $44, Int. $34, and Rec Men $24.

In 2012, The prices are nearly the same, but cater to current PDGA MEMBERS. If you are a current member your entry fee is: Adv: $34 *Cheaper than 2011* Intermediate: $30 *Cheaper than 2011* and Rec $24

My payouts at States have always been good for all divisions as well.

As far as PDGA memberships go and events go: I've had more players contact me about how to pick up a PDGA membership because they want to start getting that $10 discount at my PDGA events. It sounds so much better than "your entry fee is $34 are you a current PDGA member? Reply: NO. O.K. an extra $10 please" I like saying are you current? Yes, Ok it's $24 instead of $34

Again, I see no point in having current membership if you have no events to play.

As far as the "Old News Magazine" I honestly enjoy reading the magazine. Why? I like to actually read about disc golf and articles written, regardless if its old. Heck I would buy a SN subscription if SN had one. I enjoy seeing pictures of players especially if I know their name and have never seen them before.
Example: I couldn't spot all BOD members if I tried. Then I look at results and they have been to my events or I've played at events where they were there too. I guess I am a visual person.

I enjoy promoting disc golf period. I have silly ideas, good ideas and smart ideas. In the end, I want all disc golfers to emjoy this sport and would care less to be bias to either series. I wish we all could be that way. There are benefits both ways.

Doug - Just to make sure you're not taking what I said the wrong way: You're tournaments are TOP quality. You're promotional skills are top tier. It's just some guys like me look at that and go, "geez, do I really want to shell out $40.00?" I feel a little more confident because I know you're running it and so there will be a great player's pack, opportunities to win a side game, and good payout if I place.

discdawg Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Doug - Just to make sure you're not taking what I
> said the wrong way: You're tournaments are TOP
> quality. You're promotional skills are top tier.
> It's just some guys like me look at that and go,
> "geez, do I really want to shell out $40.00?" I
> feel a little more confident because I know you're
> running it and so there will be a great player's
> pack, opportunities to win a side game, and good
> payout if I place.

I promise I didn't get my feelings hurt. I did however look at the history and pull of the stats. I always look at the previous years entry fees and try to cater to those and pull something together each year.
Having amateurs come to my events from out of town, really create a greater support in my eyes due to the fact that you guys are treveling just to play. Amateurs are my favorite disc golfers in a way that I respect most..............you guys play for the game not the "how much is added cash, how much is first place, etc . . . . "
Professionals can be the pickiest players in the world. However, they ARE playing in events to try and re-coupe their expenses. Which is why PDGA sanctioned events C, B, A tiers have standards. Added cash and a minimum players pack to all amateurs.

I did want to take this moment to say, my events are never solely on me. I do have help from the locals who really make it easier on me. A TD does have so much to do like players cards, scorecards, tee signs, advertising, and much more. Locals will help by cleaning the courses, sponsoring holes, counting cards, etc . . .
Over the years, John Kittrell has been there for me and helped in a big way! I can't stress enough how much respect I have for him and his support.

Well said Akeem!!

It's not really the SN or PDGA but the people in certain areas who make up the region that give the SN a bad name.

Tupelo's annual Fling With The King will be PDGA only this year.

If there's no added money or sponsors PDGA tournaments payouts are really weak.

The main thing to fix the SN are a lot of things Doug have mentioned in his other post on the forum and just try to improve our image, start enforcing some of the rules, drinking, smoking, no shirts, etc...

Payouts really have nothing to do with PDGA, that is mainly all the TD and how well they get sponsorships.

Everyone asks where the PDGA money goes, where does SN money go? You never hear of PDGA TD's not giving financials and not posting results. Seems like a common thing here in SN. I don't see why everyone hates so much on the PDGA, after all it is the governing body of our sport. My opinion has changed over the past few months on the PDGA. I think the main reason people hate on the PDGA around here because it is not common in our area.

About Dustin's post saying more people pay for memberships than not. I don't necessarily have stats to back this up, but check the PDGA tournament schedule, there are just as many events in June and July for PDGA as there are in the complete SN season. Obviously they are doing something right. For tournament players, more people do pay for PDGA membership than not. How many players in SN and how many registered players on te PDGA? That is the proof.

Not as many as you think.

Cody, a SN payout is 10x better than a PDGA payout with no added money. As I said, if there's are no added cash or sponsors PDGA payouts are super weak as opposed to all SN money goes toward payout minus $2 per player.

Cody, also realize there's only about 15-20 cities that make up the SN as opposed to the entire USA, give or take a few countries overseas that make up the PDGA.

Cody, a SN payout is 10x better than a PDGA payout with no added money. As I said, if there's are no added cash or sponsors PDGA payouts are super weak as opposed to all SN money goes toward payout minus $2 per player.

Lets look at that statement just a little closer. SN payouts are 10X better with no added money. Lets take a 50 person Amateur event. Entry fee $50 across the board.

If you have an SN event, no added money, $2 per player comes out, SN ask for you to pay out 33% of the field. A lot of TD's are going to 40 and 50% these days for the Amateurs and 33% Pro's.

Now PDGA sanctioned C-Tier: All players are PDGA members, $50.00 sanctioning fee, $2 per player, PDGA ask for you to choose 45%, or 50% payout on the TD report for you Amateur Players and 40,45,50% for professionals.

Lets say we pay out 33% of what SN ask for: Here is what you get: $50 entry, subtract $2, 50ct players = $2400 purse
With SN's 33% payout you are paying out 16.5 spots (rounded up to 17 spots)

Lets say we payout 45% of what PDGA ask for in Amateur event you are paying out 23 spots. $50 entry, subtact $50 sanctioning fee, subtract $2 per player, 50ct players = $2350 purse.

Bottom line:
SN payouts show a less amount of players getting money, but those players who make the 33% cut are getting bigger payouts.
PDGA payouts show a greater amount of players getting money (6 more spots) and the ones making the 45% cut are getting paid less. But the wealth is spread out. *which is what I like about it.

Now here is the question. Would you prefer the amatuer players to receive a FAT payout or MORE amateurs receive a payout? Something to think about.
I like seeing more amateur players receiving a payout rather than spiking the top 3 spots. On the professional side, I like seeing their payout higher because they play for money and it bothers me when a professional spends money to play, gas, hotel, food and wins hardly any of that money back. This sport is not at a making a living yet, but I do however want to see a pro player recoupe his fees and expenses back.
Again, I don't do it with the expense of the Amateurs either................I bust my butt to advertise for sponsors so players are playing for the added sponsorship money not what the amateurs are paying me. Something else to think about.

Also, I don't believe you should add the $10 non member fee to the payout equation b/c that is on the player NOT the Tournament Director. So if you were not a PDGA member you would pay $60, but that isn't a part of your payout. I still think its pointless to host a single PDGA event if your state doesn't have them. Not the same where I am, We have them, but they are 2.5-3 hours away, unless I host one in central Arkansas. I hosted my first one in Hot Springs in November, now I am hosting 3 in May. These players who are current members of the PDGA and attend all 4 of those events, will save $40.00 from the 4 events. So it might be worth a membership to them. But if I only hosted one event, then its kinda pointless.......right?



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 05/04/2012 04:48PM by Trackin01.

The cool thing about SN is...........you can play a qualifier and earn your 2pts to get into the SNAC, SNDC, or SNPC. SN is in such a small area for the United States that you don't have to drive extremely far to play in its Championships.

PDGA is so BIG, that you can qualify for the Worlds or get an invite, but Worlds can be extremely far away and you may never get a chance to attend it every year. The players base of a Worlds would be huge especially when your talking 500+ players to SN's 150 at championships. Clearly the player base is larger based on the area that PDGA covers, but harder to attend an annual Worlds to SN's annual Championships.

SN sometimes has their championships at the same location back to back. No problem. I actually like that. The only problem I see is nobody is knocking down the door to host either championship! 2013 Championship location should already be determined and taking bids for 2014. Another thing I keep seeing is, lately anyone who host a championship, the TD gets an ear full on how incorrect he ran the thing. Which leads me to BOD Standards on what to expect to do at SN's Championships. There should be a packet sent every year to the TD's about that.

Seriously, SN payouts are better? At a tournament in Memphis last year, the 7th place person in a 40 player am field got a DX roc, super soft voodoo, mini, t shirt, and a sticker. 40 person field. SN payouts are totally better... Please! I am no speaking up for either because both are not the best organizations. However, The PDGA is the governing body of our sport and should be supported.

In the end the end though, this argument will never end. Which is better, buzzz or roc, innova or discraft, PDGA or SN, etc. no one will ever agree on which is better so it is a pointless argument.

I don't care what sanction it is, if it's expensive for me to play, then I won't play, but if the price is right, I'll come on down.

Terry Zeringue

Payout issues boil down to the Tournament Director. Did he raise money? Did a club help with raising money? It's important to remember that. SN ask for a different percent than PDGA.

I want to know more about why people in SN have such a strong disregard to the PDGA. For me I learned how to play disc golf in a strong SN minded area where people are very passionate about their beliefs. Not even sure why this is the case, but it is. I am only hearing negatives b/c I sanctioned the Arkansas State Champsionships with the PDGA. Kind of silly in my book.

-Zinger
I agree with you. There has to be something extra special that makes events entry fees worth charging more. In amateur divisons, its hard to travel out of state, pay a lot of money, stay a night, gas, and play for more disc golf merchandise. For Professional players, you get to be picky if you choose and not drive to places unless the payout is worth it. That is what a lot of pro's have to say. Some are there for the support though.

I would like to see a few major events in the SN be PDGA events. I won't buy a PDGA membership again simply because there are no PDGA events in the South. I know I'm only an Intermediate player, but I would like to see how I stack up nationally/internationally. I would like to see how we Southerners stack up against everybody else. I think the disc golf world would take notice of our talent, and we would get the respect we deserve.

In 2005 I lived in Austin, so I bought a membership. I played in one tourney and did pretty well against the PDGA players. I believe SN players can hang with anybody in the country, but we will never get the respect we deserve, because we do not receive a single opportunity to play PDGA without a long road trip.

I'm not saying make every SN tourney PDGA, but I wouldn't mind seeing a couple of events within reasonable driving distance for those on the Gulf Coast.

Personally, I don't carr about prizes as much as the thrill of competition. I will pay for the discs and equipment that I want. T-shirts are the biggest deal to me.

Just my $.02.

^^^^^^^^Agreed^^^^^^^

Time to see what people outside of this forum think. It might not be of interest of the people who visit this forum, but I am curious who else out there has some thoughts on this issue. I posted a poll on dgcoursereview.com to see what reaction it would get.