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I got robed. Whats your call.

Posted by randeye1 
I got robed. Whats your call.
June 18, 2012 08:09AM
I played a turny in topelo ms. It was a npc qualifier. There was only 2 pgms takes three to qualify ok no problem.
We played the first round I went and looked at the score board and saw we were mixed in with the open division.
I also looked at the pay out board and didnt see a pgm pay out. I asked the td and he told men that we had to have three. I my mind I thought the two gms would played for there own money. AM I wrong took think this way or not????
WHAT DO YOU THINK ............
Re: I got robed. Whats your call.
June 18, 2012 08:31AM
Well first of all you should expressed more concern about it. For there to be a division there needs to be 3 players. I'm not a thief so don't say you got robbed. I will gladly send you your entry fee back to you if you would like. We discussed your points and you said as long as you got your GM points you didn't mind "donating" to pro.
Re: I got robed. Whats your call.
June 18, 2012 08:36AM
Section 1.0: Classification of Players

1.1 The following classifications shall be used for all Southern National Disc Golf (SNDG) sanctioned tournaments. All female players may compete in duplicate divisions as those offered for male players. Female players may compete in male divisions if they choose, but male players may not compete in female divisions. A director may, by giving adequate public notice, restrict the divisions offered. Absent such notice, the director shall offer for competition any division which has three or more players in attendance with exception to any women and novice in attendance.
Re: I got robed. Whats your call.
June 18, 2012 09:24AM
How do you get GM points if you do not have a GM division? How would it be determed of how many points you would give to the GM if they played in another division? If you give GM points to Randy how might that affect the Pro points? What happens if Randy wins the point series for GM by the number of points you give him? I can see both sides but this decision may affect the points race in some way. Good luck with this!

Go out and play around with Disc Golf Today!!

Steve Hollis
Destin/FWB FL

Re: I got robed. Whats your call.
June 18, 2012 09:31AM
.....i dont think the points race will matter about 2 or 3 points....especially since it is the beginning of this years points race....I would say that it was nice of gardner to allow him to have points in the division that didn't have enough people to have a mixed divisions i recieved 2 points in my division reguardless of how many people we beat...i believe that would be the same case in this sitiuation....
Re: I got robed. Whats your call.
June 18, 2012 10:08AM
Should have had the GM division even with two participants, you would still have the Pro division if there were only two Pros show up right? There is no way you would tell a Pro that he couldn't play because there weren't three participants. Also I have been to tournaments in almost every area I have played where there were less than three participants in a division. But this could have been solved before the first round or at least in a PM not out in public such as this.
Re: I got robed. Whats your call.
June 18, 2012 11:09AM
Head is quoting from the old Handbook. Since this keeps happening it appears the BOD needs to make it clearer that it was replaced by the new handbook.


However, regarding the issue at hand, the language of either handbook is clear. The TD may but is not required to offer a division of two. Therefore no SN rule I know of was violated.

There is no rule covering what happens when a person thinks they have signed up for one division then finds out after the first round they were put in another. I can't tell in this case whether the player should have known which division they were in before play started but this issue is simply a matter of contract between the players involved and the TD. It is at least a lesson in effective communication. If you don't know there are 3 in your division it is best to ask what division you are in before play begins. If the division the player signed up for is not available I would think the player should be allowed the choice of withdrawal or bump. Once the player was made aware in this case, it appears the player chose the bump, so I don't see the beef.
Re: I got robed. Whats your call.
June 18, 2012 06:00PM
Mail him his entry.,my2 cents


Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 06/18/2012 06:08PM by BRIAN B.
Re: I got robed. Whats your call.
June 18, 2012 09:31PM
this is hard for me to say but i agree with b-hole thats the rite thing to do.
Re: I got robed. Whats your call.
June 18, 2012 09:46PM
I see a different problem......we don't have 3 GM to play in a tournament. Also if the TD knew GMs were coming from 6 hours away why not let them know we MIGHT not have enough for that division......This event is part of a series, so prior attendance in that division would be available.

I am not try to take a shot at anyone.....just stating my view......Matthew does a good job, and Randy is a friend. IMO lack of commutation, on all parties part, could be the issue here......

Keith "Sunshine" B.
Re: I got robed. Whats your call.
June 19, 2012 06:27AM
its not the TD's responsability to contact everyone traveling to his event to let them know something he is unsure about......If i am traveling to a tournament, i always contact the TD if i am unsure and ask questions that i am unsure about. I understand that i have never hosted a tournament before but this is just what i think...
Re: I got robed. Whats your call.
June 19, 2012 07:28AM
I would Think it would be on the player to contact the td if the division is not listed on the flyer or tournament forum. If the division is listed the td should offer the division to anyone wanting to play. This is how we do it in Columbus.
Re: I got robed. Whats your call.
June 19, 2012 09:25AM
There were 2 GM.. the one that finished with the better score gets 3 points.. the other guy gets 2...Pretty simple to give the points out. As far as the payout, that's the Td's descression... If you had that big of a problem with it, you should have spoke up after the 1st round when the payouts were posted.
Re: I got robed. Whats your call.
June 19, 2012 09:50AM
Some years ago I entered a tournament at Cosser with the intention of playing in the PGM division; only two of us showed up. Moreover, there were no PMs so Danny Daniels and I played in the Open division but agreed that whoever shot the lowest score would get the Trophy which the TD had for the PGMs. We discussed this with the TD before the event started. I was not thrilled about donating my entry fee to the pros but I did have an enjoyable day playing disc golf.

I know who the PGMs are in the area so what I do is make a few phone calls or get on this forum in advance of a tournament to see if a PGM (now PSGM) division will have at least three players. If I can not get at least two others in my preferred division to commit then I usually do not participate. There is never a guarantee that any division will have three players. You check it out beforehand or hit the road and take your chances.

What I think is truly wrong with the situation is getting on this public forum and accusing the TD of being a thief.

Gary Wagoner

Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 06/19/2012 09:52AM by Gary Wagoner.
Anonymous User
Re: I got robed. Whats your call.
June 19, 2012 04:21PM
You didn't get robbed and if you're a PGM I would work on that writing comprehension.

First off, what are you complaining about ? That you didn't get an NPC invite, since you mentioned it?

That you didn't get your PGM points? Or that you had to play pro?

Matthew mentioned you would "donate" to pro as long as you got your points.

You should of spoke up how unhappy you seem after the first round.
Anonymous User
Re: I got robed. Whats your call.
June 20, 2012 06:38AM
I'm getting worried about Discjazz. He keeps referring to some "new handbook" of secret SN rules that apparently only he knows exists.

I mean really, would a legitimate disc golf sanctioning body take 2 years to revise its rules, and then not even bother to publish these new rules? Would a legitimate disc golf sanctioning entity allow its players to read one set of rules on its website, but keep a new second set of rules in a secret vault somewhere, only to be quoted by a seemingly delusional attorney when the new secret rules are violated?

I mean come on, Discjazz, your claim that the SN is so backwards that it would have a published set of rules and a secret set of unpublished rules is quite fantastic. Could I possibly interest you in seeking psychiatric attention for your delusions?
Re: I got robed. Whats your call.
June 20, 2012 08:08AM
I wasn't at this tournament, but something similar has happened to me in the past. My division, Pro Master Women, was an advertised division. I paid a couple weeks in advance of the tourney, but then when I arrived was told that since there was only two of us master women that we'd have to play with the pro open women. I understand it's the TD's call, but why advertise these other divisions if you don't intend to let someone play in it. If only one or two pro open men showed up, what division would they have to play in if it takes three? And when there's only one pro woman at a tourney, she doesn't have to play another division....personally, I don't see why one person can't play alone. What's the big deal, they get their entry fee back in payout, they're happy, they'll come back and play, they'll spread words of goodwill about the tourney and write positive things on this forum. IMO.
Re: I got robed. Whats your call.
June 20, 2012 11:28AM
Fantastic delusions are highly underrated Bluff, just like multiple personalities, fable rules and the subtle humor you have such mastery of. BTW, how's the coup coming? Do we have to wait 2 years for that too?
Re: I got robed. Whats your call.
June 20, 2012 11:56AM
I agree with Laura. That's the way I run a tournament. If there is only one person in a division and they play all the rounds then they get the trophy, prize money, division points and SN qualification. This happens from time to time especially with Pro Women who have no option of playing in another division. Such situations should be discussed with the TD before any plastic is thrown. The important thing is that there be at least 3 players on a card even if they are not all in the same division.

I disagree with giving the player his entry fee back as a matter of precedence, but he should receive PGM points. Where is his entry fee? It was distributed throughout the tournament as expenses and purses, i.e., it no longer exists as a discrete sum of money. What Brian and Mike are suggesting amounts to a fine on the TD because a refund must come out of his pocket or that of the club. If TD's are routinely fined for such things that would be a pretty strong disincentive, especially for individuals not backed by a club, to step up and run tournaments.

Gary Wagoner
Anonymous User
Re: I got robed. Whats your call.
June 20, 2012 12:48PM
You do not need 3 players for INT, ADV, or Open.
Re: I got robed. Whats your call.
June 20, 2012 12:56PM
Gary has it right. There is no SN rule on refunds as far as I know. There may be proposals for such rules pending in the secret vault. Once payout has occurred it is too late for a refund. I think the player should be allowed a refund when he has fair notice of the division not making, but if he decides to play on it is subject to the terms offered. There is really no harm or extra TD work in a less than 3 person division and certainly no SN rule against it. OTOH if a TD decides 3 are required he may lose the fees but that is the TD's prerogative.
Re: I got robed. Whats your call.
June 20, 2012 08:00PM
What division did the board card have on it?

If it said "Grandmasters" and you played two rounds and then were told that you were actually playing Open, you got robbed.

If it said Open and you played two rounds and then realized that you weren't in Grandmasters, you weren't paying attention.
Re: I got robed. Whats your call.
June 20, 2012 08:30PM
This will be the last thing I say on this issue

I apologize to Randy that there was a communication error between the two of us. When signup occurred I mentioned that if we did not have 3 people then he would have to play Open. He was the 2nd person to sign up. We had only one other person sign up and therefore they were placed in Open like I said I would do at signup.

I hate there was a misunderstanding. I do however would have rather been talked to more about this issue at the tournament instead of getting on here and reading about it. The only other conversation I had with Randy was about his points. And he said as long as he could get his GM points then he didnt mind donating to the Pro field.

After thinking about it, I will not be refunding anything. Once again I am sorry about the situation and I will try to do better in the future in handling this type of problem. To Players, This type of thing is better handled in person at the time of the problem or in a PM rather than on the public forum. If a PM does not solve the problem then bring it here.


Matthew Gardner


$1500 raised toward the FINAL BATTLE so far!!
Re: I got robed. Whats your call.
June 21, 2012 06:50AM
Who put a robe on you, Randeye?
Anonymous User
Re: I got robed. Whats your call.
June 21, 2012 09:01AM
Re: I got robed. Whats your call.
June 21, 2012 09:32PM
Ok I want to get one thing straight in no way do I think your a thief maybe I shouldn't have worded it like that cause I dont think that. Maybe I should have done more home work before I drove 300 miles. I guess we both learned something. I guess we should have talked a little more. I thought you did a good job running the turny. I have never ran
one but im shur there's alot to do .I have alot of friends in the discgolf world and I dont want to start going the other way. So I hope there's no ill feelings between us. And in no way would I want my entry back. I played had a good time. Your the TD so you can put my points where you think they need to go. I bet next time ill make a phone call.LOL

pdga# 7250
Re: I got robed. Whats your call.
June 22, 2012 09:14AM
jesus, everytime I get on this forum it is always tons of @#$%& and negative attitudes. @#$%&
Re: I got robed. Whats your call.
June 22, 2012 10:04AM
Good post, Randeye. You did bring up a valid point about your situation in the tournament regardless of the phrasing. Overall, I think this has been a productive discussion without "tons of negativity". I think the take away is this:

1. Communicate. If there is a problem try to work it out before the tournament starts and certainly before it ends.

2. If only one person signs up in a offered division then they ought to be able to be a division of one and receive all the benefits of that division. If they are eligible to move up they may be allowed or encouraged, but not required, to do so.

3. Refunds of entry fees after the tournament is over are not acceptable.

4. Be respectful of the TD. If not for himself then for the effort he put into running the tournament.

Gary Wagoner
Re: I got robed. Whats your call.
June 22, 2012 01:57PM
WORD from the Wagoner!!

Looks like Randeye and Head have their signals straight - Nice work fellas! Griff
Re: I got robed. Whats your call.
June 22, 2012 02:15PM
I agree with Randeye on the thought of driving several hours, thinking you'd get to play in your preferred division and they being told at the last minute your division no longer exists, it sucks. But in the end, the reason we travel so far is to play with some great people and have a great time--which happens 99.99% of the time!! (the .01% is either extreme heat, cold or rain!!).
I also agree that this thread was not all totally negative, I think a few good things can be taken away from everyone's thoughts.

Gary--I'm still in awe that you shot -16 on the ridge at the masters tourney!!!
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