I'll admit to buying into the ratings tangent. If we need to raise the fees in order to fix the web site so we can enforce the rules we have now, money making in the long run or not, we just have to bite the bullet and get it done. Otherwise we are not doing our best to promote fair competition even in our traditional divisional structure.
Dillon Gourley Wrote:
> I would never pay more than $2 per event.
> Jbrowntown, I'm glad you are doing some much
> posting. Shows... Well, since you're "new" I won't
> even say it. Pure SN comedy!
So what If I post alot? Im not embarassed about it. Ive said before if i have a love for something, which in this case would be disc golf, then i try to be as active as possible in it. Not gonna apologize for wanting to make a difference or pushing to try and help SN be better. I have already talked to three people in the past 2 days about trying to help make a website, and trying to bargain for the lowest price. I'm not just on here saying opinions.
University of Mobile, Mobile Al
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 07/17/2012 03:16PM by JBrowntown7.
There were 9,000+ tournament entries last season. A website and ratings system combined shouldn't cost $9,000. If TD's don't want to charge more fees, I still think SN as a whole could find enough sponsors to fund both. Then you put the formula for the ratings system on the new website and let the TD's decide for themselves if they want to use it. If players really want ratings, they can show it by having huge turnouts at the tournaments that offer them.
and vote on the raising of fees....... and vote on ratings - these can be voted on easily by adding the issues to the ballots at the Championships....
I really don't understand why the $$ raised from advertising on the site wouldn't cover any needs of the site...it has run for years in its present state -
- the GRAND MAJORITY of SN players really don't care about the points either - mostly those that travel and can play enough to be in the race care and that is a true minority of the SN outside of those municipalities with enough courses within 50 miles.....(there was a time that I cared - but that too has passed).....
leading to me being in strong disagreement that more than 50% of SN players want ratings - only those that play enough tourneys would even care - those that travel - and these days - even that is ard to do........
Don't raise the cost to the players - FIND ANOTHER WAY!! Those that really want ratings make sure they play the dual sanctioned events and play PDGA tourneys to boot....
My 2 cents......Griff
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 07/17/2012 03:36PM by bryan griffin.
I have not seen 1 TD post that they are in favor of this idea. That mean this is a dead subject. Beat the horse all you want the TDs are not going to collect the extra 1.00. SN got its start over a TD not collecting money for the PDGA. Do we really want to go down that road?!?!?!
Keith "Sunshine" B
Griff, well said bro.
I just don't see the need to ask players to put up more money.
Would a new website be nice, sure. So would a new car. I think I'll go demand another $1/hour from my boss and see how that works out for me in this economy.
As for ratings, I'd bet that much less than 50% would give a rat's behind about ratings.
The vast majority of Am players probably don't have a clue that they are contributing $2 to the SNAC since only a small % actually show up to the SNAC to try and recoup the money they paid out anyway. Most Am players I've meet out there (and some Pro's for that matter) are just looking at an escape from Work, Stress, Family, Bills, whatever for 1 day. So it's just a nice day at the park, enjoying mostly good company and friends.
Just my .02, although if I'm getting taxed another $1 I better start saving those .02.
Contrast and Keith make good points here. Raising the fee from $2 - $3 might not be the best interest at all. Some of these guys posting here do host multiple tournaments a year and paying $3 a player can add up.
Some people look at like this: They host an event with no sponsorship added cash and fear the low payouts, whcih in return de-value their event a little bit. Some TD's pay $2-$5 just to host their event a park, Not to mention insurance costs at that park. Then you tack on the SN fees and boom, now you have an expense that you need to come up with. A lot of players have no idea of some expenses that go into an event. Not to mention the paper, printing, misc. etc . . . .
Some go out and raise sponsorship money to offset the SN Fees and make a minimum of 100% paid back for payout. I know Keith tends to think this way, which is what most TD's should consider.
I posted once before about how SN could make more money to do something good.............What has been tried so far was the selling of SN Shirts. How many were sold?
Ads on dgcoursereview for a header and footer cost about $120-$140 a month! Just to have an ad on it.
Again look at how much money is being lost on the sales of bag tags. They have no incentive or value to them for amateur players and SN only can sale close to 200ct of them each year! That is terrible numbers when you think about how many players are out there. Having a SN Bag Tag only Ace Pot only goes so far. Again, I wished someone would convice the BOD to give out disc's or something cool with these tags period. That would boost sale just a bit. At least in my mind.
This web site is not so broke that an individual player cannot determine their own division status. It's just that it is not easy enough for a TD to confirm on Saturday morning. Last I heard, the possibility of a few extra columns in the results on this site to fix this problem has not been ruled out. I saw on another thread (think it was the SNAC) how players are starting to step up and check the status of entrants. Proposed new rules give the BoD retroactive DQ authority. Then there is my favorite comment so far, from Rouster:
"Most Am players I've meet out there (and some Pro's for that matter) are just looking at an escape from Work, Stress, Family, Bills, whatever for 1 day. So it's just a nice day at the park, enjoying mostly good company and friends".
These factors and a little honor could lead to the conclusion we don't need a new web site or fee raise.
The most important thing to consider in this discussion may be that the rain stopped for a few days.
In my opinion, a website and ratings would be less about keepng current players happy and more about getting new players involved. It would be about league growth. A clean, up to date website would catch the attention of possible sponsors and lead to more advertising dollars and bigger payouts. Ratings would help bring new players in and keep them in.
It would be interesting to do some research on how many new players compete in two SN tournaments and then never play in another one. I'm guessing this happens a lot. A guy starts playing disc golf. He hears about SN and decides to play in a tournament. He plays in the novice division and is able to stay competitive with the others. So he decides to play in another tournament. This time he competes in ams and gets destroyed. After that, he continues to play disc golf, but never in any tournaments.
That's a problem in my opinion and ratings would help fix it. Then instead of those people getting discouraged, they would be more likely to continue playing in tournaments because they could be more competitive. In return SN would have higher attendance, bigger payouts, and faster growth.
The problem Contrast speaks of could be a Rec player who moved up too soon and did not realize he could play Rec again in his third event.
It could also be too many advanced skilled players playing intermediate. There is a solution to that problem better than ratings. Make those two divisions (or all three) of equal size. Combo sign up. Finishing division determined by classification and 1st round score, whichever is higher.
Keith Bodin Wrote:
> I also think Eric is in favor Robert......I could
> be wrong.......
Just to be clear, if I was to vote from what I have read so far. I would vote agaist the price raise, because all the reasons givin.
Now when I started this thread I was for it, and this is why I need to ask questions.
Thank You everybody for your thoughts, I don't think You have to worry about a price increase anytime soon.
Reading back through this thread and things like mandatory bag tag , rating, player number.. It's a mirror image of the pDGA....if that is the direction the SN wants to go it would be better if we all joined the pDGA and let them handle all the ratings.they already have people in place doing that anyway. Every player would have a number and they have a points system as well...just $50 a year... I am a current member right now only to save myself the $10 fee for playing local pDGA events. I just don't think that this will be as smooth as some might think.
I'm for ratings, but paid for by advertising dollars and done as a test run made optional to sponsors to see if it is something the players really want. That way we get real feedback instead of just having a fraction of the SN community posting about it on the forum.
I'm for a new website as well, but I'm a little curious what everyone else is wanting it to include. Obviously the first two things would be a new design and paid banner ads. Then a link to the updated handbook we keep hearing about? A merchandise page that goes to a SN store which includes t-shirts, bag tags, and any other future fundraising ideas? A tournament signup page? What else?
Experience is not relevent. Everytime a new player posts something on here, "experienced TD's" tell them how things can't be done. This is a player's series so everyone should have equal say on everything. I think the "experienced TD's" do not like the extra money coming out of their pocket is one issue. I think SN needs to realize that we do not have many sponsors and support and something needs to be changed to fix this. We don't need to continue to watch SN run in the ground. Also, need to think about the up and coming TD's. If they want ratings...they will just host pdga events and make it worse for SN.
Robert 'Mac' Wrote:
> Let's see how the voting is progressing so far:
> Aganist- five or six experienced TDs
> For- one very raw Rookie
Some ideas for website
Page for the new handbook
Ratings and points page
History page (how the SN got started, who do we thank for getting it together)
Past winners etc
Updated schedules and results
a donation link for anyone who chooses to donate to the SN. Maybe we can have a specific thing we trying to raise money for and they donate strictly for that
A list of all clubs and leagues. This way all the new players can come on and see what's around them
A list of all TDs just to show them respect
A merchandise page like contrast said
If we did some sort of membership maybe thru bag tags etc. A page for that
A voting link where whenever it's time to vote on something or the Bod or whatever we can go here. Having a membership would be good for this cuz if we has a number and a specific email is linked to that number, a unique URL can be sent to them to vote. This could prevent people from voting a million times and also let others vote who may not be at the championships
A contact link
A courses link
One Thing the pdga has I think is pretty cool is a media link. It would be fun to read articles written on people you play with.
A paypal link like dillon said
Pictures as well
University of Mobile, Mobile Al
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 07/18/2012 10:30AM by JBrowntown7.
I dont care if the fee is raised or not. Ratings will never be enforced to move people up so they are a dead issue.
I am an AM player and I think the one thing that needs to happen is the upwards of 30-40% of the AM SN fees be taken and put toward the SNPC Payout. The AM players do not really need all the plastic that comes with the SNAC
Experienced TD - 14+ yrs in SN - against a fee raise....
Dustin is correct that everyone's pov should be listened to...
Dustin is INCORRECT that the $1 has anything to do with the TD's pockets.....it will come from the players whether they realize it up front or not....
I personally never made 1 red cent on any tourney I ever ran (most were for a Club or a Charity)....never pocketed a penny - maybe got a tourney disc or mini for my work, but that's it......
Guess I am naive - I never ran a tourney to line MY pockets - I worked as a volunteer in support of a Club......
I would personally be against tourneys run by individuals or vendors - it is a straight up conflict of interest and the temptation to pocket $$ is obvious and has been historically abused in several cases....
This series is about the players - and the players should decide - but the players are also entitled to all the facts and differing povs prior to their decision.....aren't we all? Griff
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 07/18/2012 01:16PM by bryan griffin.
I would personally be against tourneys run by individuals or vendors - it is a straight up conflict of interest and the temptation to pocket $$ is obvious and has been historically abused in several cases.... Griff
I take this in a bad way. I run tournaments by myself because I don't like the headache of having 20 people in a club telling me how to run my tourney. I don't make anything on my tournaments. All profit goes to the next one. Wait until you see my civil war final and you will see. But to down a individual who runs a tournament is not good.
Head, you are an exception to the rule along with a handffull of others. Usually when your in town to run an event, several of us are there to help you out with stuff and we know you are 100% for the sport. But there are some with different ideals than yours. In that since I agree with Griff but I don't agree that that all individuals should be lumped together...IMHO