I believe I said leave it in the past and solve it for the future. Try reading every part of my post, not just the parts you want to read. Explain to me how you will go to them and take their merchandise back? You probably would be unsuccessful in that venture. They played in a division that by one of the sets of rules is correct, so how are they at fault. If this were an organization with one set of rules, they should get punishment immediately if they did wrong. However, there are two sets of rules accessible that say two different things so it is basically their word against yours. They started playing in 2005 when one set of rules were in place, and on the homepage, those rules are still in place so they were playing by the rules they knew to be right.

What are your statistics to back up that people get away with it all the time during the season Dustin? Do you have factual proof that it happens all the time?

It seems to me that we put a lot of pressure on the BoD to clarify rules, punish baggers, etc...
Maybe the BoD just cant do everything that we, the players, are asking for. So here's the suggestion:

Infractions Committee. (name subject to change)

They would be responsible for keeping players in check. This committee would be made up of at least one person from every major SN city that would travel to a tournament close to them and check players, maybe even have their entry fee paid for. If that doesn't work(going to the actual tournaments), they can also correspond with the TD and get players info from them. That way the TD doesnt have to do extra work and check the players the day of the tournament and you can still make sure people are playing in the correct division. This committee would coordinate with the BoD on appropriate punishments for violations, and once the punishments are established, the committee would be in charge of issuing said punishment, whether that be restitution for prizes, suspension, or whatever. They also would get with whoever is in charge of the website(old or new) and get our ACTUAL RULES on the site. As this committee's role expanded, it may also include updating our ratings(if we decide to use them) and other things that may come up. This approach will give the BoD a more hands off approach so they can focus on the other things they are trying to accomplish.

Im looking not to blame the BoD for problems, but instead help them with this enormous job that have undertaken as our representatives. The have a lot of pressure on them. Lets do our part and help them out. I do, tho, agree with wayne. if this were any other major sport in America, this would not be an issue. punishments would come down on the perps and they would be held accountable.

Quote

JshDvd Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> It seems to me that we put a lot of pressure on
> the BoD to clarify rules, punish baggers, etc...
> Maybe the BoD just cant do everything that we, the
> players, are asking for. So here's the
> suggestion:
>
> Infractions Committee. (name subject to change)
>
> They would be responsible for keeping players in
> check. This committee would be made up of at least
> one person from every major SN city that would
> travel to a tournament close to them and check
> players, maybe even have their entry fee paid for.
> If that doesn't work(going to the actual
> tournaments), they can also correspond with the TD
> and get players info from them. That way the TD
> doesnt have to do extra work and check the players
> the day of the tournament and you can still make
> sure people are playing in the correct division.
> This committee would coordinate with the BoD on
> appropriate punishments for violations, and once
> the punishments are established, the committee
> would be in charge of issuing said punishment,
> whether that be restitution for prizes,
> suspension, or whatever. They also would get with
> whoever is in charge of the website(old or new)
> and get our ACTUAL RULES on the site. As this
> committee's role expanded, it may also include
> updating our ratings(if we decide to use them) and
> other things that may come up. This approach will
> give the BoD a more hands off approach so they can
> focus on the other things they are trying to
> accomplish.
>
> Im looking not to blame the BoD for problems, but
> instead help them with this enormous job that have
> undertaken as our representatives. The have a lot
> of pressure on them. Lets do our part and help
> them out. I do, tho, agree with wayne. if this
> were any other major sport in America, this would
> not be an issue. punishments would come down on
> the perps and they would be held accountable.

So what do we have to do, to get the BOD to make a change and get things started towards the right direction? I'm all for playing in the Southern Nationals, but I don't want Pro's to be able to step down in a tourney, because they know they will win more in the lower class...That is another thing these baggers see. Pay the harder division more money, or this will continue as well.

Cody i dont believe they did not know the rules...As i said before i havent read no rules and i still know the rules on this...Maybe im wrong who knows because i cant read their minds...Just like it use to be legal to pull your putter through the side of the basket if it was stuck...With the new rule it dont count so i guess i need to read old rules and that way its legal to do...No im not because it is just that ILLEGAL.. But either way the BOD needs to address them on what they did.regardless whether the stuff is returned or not..

PDGA rules are different than the SN tournament handbook. PDGA rules are one set of rules that if changed, are changed in the main handbook. SN rules are changed, but the old ones are kept on the main site and cause confusion. You know the rules so well you had to ask what they were on the last page lol.

michael-lonewolf Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Cody i dont believe they did not know the
> rules...As i said before i havent read no rules
> and i still know the rules on this...Maybe im
> wrong who knows because i cant read their
> minds...Just like it use to be legal to pull your
> putter through the side of the basket if it was
> stuck...With the new rule it dont count so i guess
> i need to read old rules and that way its legal to
> do...No im not because it is just that ILLEGAL..
> But either way the BOD needs to address them on
> what they did.regardless whether the stuff is
> returned or not..

I believe that they did not know the rules. Neither Kirk or Kyle check the forums daily like everybody else to see all the updates. The most they do with this website is probably check the dates for tournaments and when they have to sign in.

So once again I will say that neither one of the Mansell's should be punished for what they have done, because honestly I think they have no idea what happened.

Buzzz > Roc

I didnt ask what the rules was EXPERT CODY i asked which one are we suppose to follow since you say the new ones are FANTASY..........I know the rules...but im goin to keep my comments to myself before to much is said...the BOD wont do nuthin regardless so be it...

My point is that even you, one who knows the rules, had to ask which were to be followed. No one is for sure on which ones to follow. Ethan's post is correct.

Bod, fix it for the next championship. Have a good weekend everyone.

I know which one to follow cody DUH..the 4 tourney is the current one they are using.I was being sarcastic when i asked which one on the current page.Any TD will tell you thats the current one to go by...bye cody have an awesome night

Previous page Excuse me for that

Hey, I'm the rule expert.

Ok dillon if you say so lol

michael-lonewolf Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> but im goin to keep my comments to myself
> before to much is said...

Then please quit posting, I've read enough crap for one night...

Buzzz > Roc

Ethan this forum is for posting .do i tell you to stop cause im tired of reading crap no i dont i get tired of reading it i get off of it..please do not disrespect me because i havent you thanks

I could've sworn someone posted 3 pages ago that they were done posting on this thread, geeeeez.

2011 Adv Points Champion
2011 Am player of the year

michael-lonewolf Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Ethan this forum is for posting .do i tell you to
> stop cause im tired of reading crap no i dont i
> get tired of reading it i get off of it..please do
> not disrespect me because i havent you thanks

Seriously?

You have not disrespected me, but you have Cody. I actually like Cody so I will defend him. And BTW you don't have to post every thought you have about an issue, sometimes things are better left unspoken.

Buzzz > Roc

Thats all good later

RobbyHarris Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I could've sworn someone posted 3 pages ago that
> they were done posting on this thread, geeeeez.


That's why I never say that...cause I know I will eat those words later...LOL

I have waited to comment on this matter until I have read what has been written so far. I do not claim to know the answer but since everyone is of their own opinion I will throw in my own 2 cents.

First I met the Mansell brothers for the first time this weekend and I think they are both fine young men, very likable and personable. They seem to be genuinely good people. Good people make mistakes also, either intentionally or unawares. Second the TDs of these SN championships have too much on their plate to have to verify every players eligibility other than they have points for the current season (which they did). What about the tournaments preceding the SNDC where they accumulated points, why did this have to be brought up after the fact. I have read this compared to last years Brad fiasco but it differs in that they knew he had no points before even letting him in and took his word on some story that he fabricated and then gave him his money without verifying.

Second I see no reason to keep beating this issue since it is now past and the time to correct this has past also, but not too late to avoid future instances . I do think the BOD needs to clarify rules and even stipulate that its the players obligation and responsibility to know their division status. Listen I know if I placed in my last four tournaments, I dont play every weekend, maybe 5-6 times a year, but I KNOW if I placed in a division in my last tournament or the one before or the one before and so on. If I did not know, I at least know to ask someone who would.

Not knowing the rules is not an excuse to disregard them, blaming TDs for allowing players is a "pass the buck" situation. The Bod needs plainer language that stipulates "it is a players responsibility to play their correct division, and if the player does not then they risk forfeiture of winnings and/or a ban of all future SN tournaments until amends are made".

Once again this has nothing to do with the individuals in this particular tournament, whether they are liked or hated, good people or not, not that they intended harm or not, its about correcting something that happens too often in the SN series. I have always believed anyone can make a mistake, but I have little tolerance for someone who makes the same mistakes over and over again.

You wasn't saying it was confusing at all in my case of moving down because i accepted a trophy....

codyroberts18 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> My point is that even you, one who knows the
> rules, had to ask which were to be followed. No
> one is for sure on which ones to follow. Ethan's
> post is correct.
>
> Bod, fix it for the next championship. Have a good
> weekend everyone.

So, this is probably a question for John K but: when you search under a person's name, would there be a way to organize past tournaments played by them in chronological order? As it is now, you have to click on each tourney they placed in to see the date. No TD on the planet has that kind of time. But if they could be ordered based on last tourney played, it would be much easier to keep a check on the rule being argued here.

It isn't confusing to me. You guys need some reading comprehension skills. It is confusing for someone who plays 2 tournaments a year and doesn't frequent this forum.

Good day folks.

This is a great idea!

Lmeyers Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> So, this is probably a question for John K but:
> when you search under a person's name, would there
> be a way to organize past tournaments played by
> them in chronological order? As it is now, you
> have to click on each tourney they placed in to
> see the date. No TD on the planet has that kind
> of time. But if they could be ordered based on
> last tourney played, it would be much easier to
> keep a check on the rule being argued here.

Ricco Suavez Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I have waited to comment on this matter until I
> have read what has been written so far. I do not
> claim to know the answer but since everyone is of
> their own opinion I will throw in my own 2 cents.
>
> First I met the Mansell brothers for the first
> time this weekend and I think they are both fine
> young men, very likable and personable. They seem
> to be genuinely good people. Good people make
> mistakes also, either intentionally or unawares.
> Second the TDs of these SN championships have too
> much on their plate to have to verify every
> players eligibility other than they have points
> for the current season (which they did). What
> about the tournaments preceding the SNDC where
> they accumulated points, why did this have to be
> brought up after the fact. I have read this
> compared to last years Brad fiasco but it differs
> in that they knew he had no points before even
> letting him in and took his word on some story
> that he fabricated and then gave him his money
> without verifying.
>
> Second I see no reason to keep beating this issue
> since it is now past and the time to correct this
> has past also, but not too late to avoid future
> instances . I do think the BOD needs to clarify
> rules and even stipulate that its the players
> obligation and responsibility to know their
> division status. Listen I know if I placed in my
> last four tournaments, I dont play every weekend,
> maybe 5-6 times a year, but I KNOW if I placed in
> a division in my last tournament or the one before
> or the one before and so on. If I did not know, I
> at least know to ask someone who would.
>
> Not knowing the rules is not an excuse to
> disregard them, blaming TDs for allowing players
> is a "pass the buck" situation. The Bod needs
> plainer language that stipulates "it is a players
> responsibility to play their correct division, and
> if the player does not then they risk forfeiture
> of winnings and/or a ban of all future SN
> tournaments until amends are made".
>
> Once again this has nothing to do with the
> individuals in this particular tournament, whether
> they are liked or hated, good people or not, not
> that they intended harm or not, its about
> correcting something that happens too often in the
> SN series. I have always believed anyone can make
> a mistake, but I have little tolerance for someone
> who makes the same mistakes over and over again.

Great post!

Not trying to incite any more ill will but I read the SN hand book and I may have reading comprehension trouble, but does it still not read a six month period instead of the four tournament rule I hear so much about. Now if wrong please correct me, but if that reads like I interpret, then the Mansell brothers were legal. If the four tournament rule is in effect then where is it posted?

Thank you for proving my point Ricco!

This thread can end right here...

1.6 Player Reclassification: Any player may change his or her classification to a higher classification any time. A player may move to a classification lower than a classification they have not accepted money in (Pro Division) or prizes in (AM Division) in the previous six months. A player may move to another classification, if eligible, pursuant 1.1(A director may, by giving adequate public notice, restrict the divisions offered.) in accordance with 1.3, and 1.4.

Its still not a matter of who is right or wrong, but more of what could we do as a group to make this series better? If new rules need to be implemented then lets draft some up and submit them for approval. Outline clear guidelines and clear consequences if not followed. Put more responsibility and ownership of said rules on the players themselves and not have our TDs held responsible for every infraction.

Based on the reality of things...they are guilty. Ignorance to the rules/bylaws is never an acceptable excuse. Cody said that he NEVER comes on here, so the old rules(that he never read anyways) do not apply. How can they apply when they were not read? People can argue all they want to, they are guilty of cheating other golfers out of their own chance to win.

Seems as though EVERYONE else knows the rules....EXCEPT them. I call B.S.

Watch it wayne you will stir up a stink lol