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back to stir the stew...sndg vs pdga

Posted by disc 
back to stir the stew...sndg vs pdga
January 13, 2003 08:39PM
ok all back to stir it up again. i see i have friends and foes on this one. i am friends to all golfers i see,beat and get whoped by. i just love the game! but out of all that i have read ..... i still dont see anyone saying pdga big tourney comeing anywhere near us. i mean its all been up to us to throw your own tourney's. have yall not yet noticed this or has it just been over looked ?? what i mean is i dont remember ever seeing pdga championship or usdgc showing up in la, ms,al,ga . no doubles no singles no nuttin! and exactly how many of you have acttually been to one of these tourneys??. what i am also getting at is that it would be not only great for your own clubs ,parks, and cities to have them come. not only would it give us respect in our own town for the name of discgolf. and prolly would enable us to get more sponors for our southern nationals. dont yall get it ? the pdga will never come to our states and yet yall arugue for them . which is all good you hav your oppions and i respect those. but ya'll still want all of us to just give them our money even 5 bucks (true aint gona kill any of us ) but still its not bennifeting our own clubs or coursesor even our pockets.ok here it is the realization part of this whole thing i have started. in the beginning the pdga gave out metal minis w/ your name and num. on them...right. and now they have resorted to a cheap piece of plastic and just your number.which prolly they either got for free or was given buy the disc makers of thier chosing. and yet ... the price for membership has risen . i dont get this . explain it to me. and still yet they want us to give them 5 extra for each of our players that we bring into the sport . and yet they dont want or even think about giving us money to let pdga's name in our tourneys. go figure. it feels to me that they think they are too good for us southerners or something. i mean we have what they require in mobile... the right amount of courses and they are all great in thier own way and miss. discgolf is growing so fast not only i do believe that the coonass have one of the best all around courses yet (highland) and one in rivendale ( which i regretfull havent played yet ....great job mikey) has been talked about as one for ages. but yet they still dont come and host any major events here or even close. no supper tours . and the only b tiers or a tiers would have to come from the sndg. now how does that benefit what we have worked so hard for in the past? i mean if we keep going one day you will have to compete to even be a member of pdga and then prolly pay 100 bucks for membership and the only get and 3x5 card saying ( thanks for your money sucker here is your number) when do we show them that we are as good as they ever been? i thank them for getting discgolf going in the u.s. but it time for them to make room and watch sndg take discgolf in a whole father and in the right dirrection for all discgolf good.

fly straight, fly far, and above all fly for fun!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
disc
I think if we want more or bigger PDGA tourneys it is up to US and each TD to jump through all the loops just like in any other part of the U.S. The questions are, is it worth the effort?, will it add to or detract from the success of an event or popularity of the sport?, does anybody really give a rip?, is it worth doing every now and then just so we can be national players or contribute to the national magnitude of our great sport? I like to play a few PDGA’s every year so I am thankful for guys like Birmingham’s Bob Satter & Brian Moon, Baton Rouge’s Todd Traylor and Will Timmons, and for the guys in Memphis and Mobile who try to do 1 or 2 a year, just to name a few. True, these all together don’t beat the fun of the numerous SNDG’s we can get to every year, and the SNDG’s are probably responsible for some of the area PDGA’s indirectly by producing DG enthusiasts. Who can we be more thankful for than Jim O? Nada. Nevertheless I am not convinced we can blame the PDGA for anything sinister. If you haven’t played any PDGA’s just join as an am for $30, get 4 issues of a cool magazine, a laminated card, a number, your performance tracked on an informative national web site and a piece of history in the making. That ain’t too bad even if it isn’t as much of a value as paying $20 per year to play 20 MS courses any time you want to or a fun SNDG tournament within only a few hours as often as you want to. What is the problem?
That's a little too much to digest at one time. But first, the PDGA doesn't come to any town to run tournaments. It's up to the local clubs, their tournament director and supporters to get an event sanctioned. The tiers, as you know, are based on the amount of the purse.

As far as a world championship, doubles, singles or otherwise, each city has to bid on them. I'm sure the PDGA will consider any legitimate requests to hold one of these events. It takes more than just several nices courses. It takes sponsorship dollars and a great deal of support in the form of local volunteers.

Believe me, I agree that Jim and the SNDG is responsible for the growth of golf in south Alabama, Mississippi and Louisiana and I've argued that before on PDGA.com.

By the way, Huntsville, AL. has hosted two PDGA world championships, 1983 and 1993, and I believe there have been some high profile events in Augusta, GA. At least an am worlds, maybe a pro worlds. Can't recall but the infos out there. RwC
disc, i don't know where you reside, but there are now at least 3 PDGA B-tiers here in the pelican state (louisiana) every year. Hooters Mardi Gras Madness in New orleans(february22&23 this year), Louisiana Open in Baton rouge(september) and the S'port City Challenge in Shreveport(August). Mobile has the City of Mobile Championship in March every year that's another big B-tier. of course that's in alabama, a different state, just want to point that out.
yes, it is easier to run a southern national event rather than a PDGA event, but the national recognition is worth it to me. I like seeing our results posted in the Disc Golf World News magazine which every member of the PDGA recieves 4 times a year. i like being part of a strong national organization that really is trying to promote this sport, they are committed to getting disc golf on television, which will provide huge exposure to our sport and grow it bigtime.
as for the PDGA not running any big events in this part of the country, the PDGA is still dependent on local VOLUNTEERS such as myself to run its biggest events. the 2002 Pro Worlds almost weren't held until local VOLUNTEERS in Houston stepped up and said they would do it. the PDGA is not dogging this part of the country, it's obvious from attitudes like you display that you are dogging the PDGA without investigating everything that they do for this sport. if money is all you care about, yes, the SN sanctioning is the way for you to go when you VOLUNTEER and run your own tournament. that's why the SN was started after all, and the argument that players want to keep their money around here isn't without its merits, but there is room for both organizations.
disc, have you ever even played in an A-tier supertour? if you had you might retract your statement about SN events being just as good as any PDGA event. it is funny that most of the flak on this board directed at the PDGA comes from people who haven't even played in a supertour.

(another message from your Louisiana State PDGA Coordinator)
So true RwC. The PDGA is a players association. It's the players that make it happen. The PDGA does not have a recruiter that goes to tournaments and sets a booth up to sign players up. It comes from dedicated players who want to involve themselves in something that is bigger than the locals on the weekend. The PDGA has grown to be international. If you want the PDGA, go get the PDGA. Nobody is restricted from it. We have not had a PDGA event here in Arkansas, at least the Little Rock area, in years. The leadership here faltered. There were even a couple years I don't think we even had tournaments. Not only did our leadership fail locally, but the fallout Texas and Oklahoma had with the PDGA hurt us too. I was the PDGA Regional Representative over this whole area at the time. The PDGA has mended itself from those times and is strong and growing. The stronger it is the better it can represent disc golf on the national and international stage of sport media and promotion. Maybe the PDGA isn't in Podunk, AR or Possum Gap, MS but they bring disc golf to the media, publications, and schools. People in position read trade magazines, attend seminars, and a go to conventions. The PDGA showcases disc golf so that city officials, park directors, state recreation departments and others are exposed to disc golf.

So...We here in Arkansas have known this. We are strong in PDGA heritage. Ted Smethers is from here. He's still here. There is benefit to having PDGA events. Rick Sandner has been designated as our PDGA Representative as of yesterday, Jan. 12. Along with our two new 18 holes courses we are going to renew our association with the PDGA. We will be looking forward to our first PDGA event in years in 2004.

See disc... the PDGA, the Southern National, the local club, tournaments...these things don't come, they don't just happen, it takes dedicated, committed, players, who think beyond the game to the sport, to a bigger picture. You want the PDGA, go get the PDGA, feel PDGA, be the PDGA...
Bill, our big event in March will likely be a B-tier this year. We've had PDGA tournaments ever since I can remember, at least as far back as 1984-85. I think last year was the first time it wasn't sanctioned. We will still have two SNDG events (Ice Bowl 2003 and W.C Handy Memorial). This is all made possible by our club and people willing to run tournaments. I renewed by PDGA membership this year after five years (member since 1986) to get the mag and avoid the $5 fee if I can get to any PDGA events. I think the PDGA and SNDG can work together to promote the sport. Working against each other will get us nowhere. Just MHO. RwC in NwALA
john kittrell
Re: back to stir the stew...sndg vs pdga
January 14, 2003 01:13PM
I agree that both the SN tour and the PDGA tour can coexist without competition and even help each other. I've been to a couple of super tours and they were great experiences, but I wouldn't have gone to them if I hadn't been competing in SN tournaments (tournaments are the best form of competition to me) I feel that a tournament whether it is a SN or PDGA is only as good as the people running it. And by the way Jim O was asked if the city of Mobile would like to host last years Pro Championship. Given the short notice, and I hate to say it, Mobile's total lack of a disc golf club (i.e. volunteers) we couldn't do it. The SN Pro tournament should be a PDGA tournament because that is the requirement for being a US Open qualifier. the prestige of that alone gives the SN tour a validity it wouldn't have. I commend Jim O. for all the work he has done to get us to this point. I believe the SN has come a long way and we have a long way to go. Off soapbox...
John K
Well, since I feel like I started this with my "should the SNDGC's be a PDGA / USDGC Qualifier" thread, and now we have a civil war. As others have stated, it is up to the local golfers, and those who run the tournaments, to bring the PDGA back to the South. They never spurned us, we did them, but not out of anger, just because a Southern Disc Golfer had a beautiful vision - the SNDG series to make competitive d-golf a near weekly happening. If one just look back seven years, to when the SN's got started, there were eight citys involved, and now we are in six states, with GOOD compition everywhere. (Dojn't believe me - just take a look at Hattisburg, Miss. They have some serious new heat up there!!!)

The PDGA is a really good organization, that really does do good, so we really don't want to bite the hand that feeds the rest of the world do we? Mobile was asked to host the 2002 Worlds, but as John K stated, they were not prepaired, or staffed to try and take on that yet, 'specially with no time to get things ready.

So in closing, we will have the SNDG championships as a B-tier PDGA event, and USDGC quallifier, and hopefully we can find some great sponsor to cover the $5 fee for all of the SN golfers that are not PDGA members.
We'll see.
Later,
Willy BTc
TheZinger
Re: back to stir the stew...sndg vs pdga
January 14, 2003 04:20PM
It's sad that a Southern National disc golfer has to pay a fee for the Southern National Championship just because he is not a PDGA member. Kinda defeats the purpose of having a Southern National Championship if you ask me(and I know no one did :) ).

Why don't we just call it the USDG qualifier for the south, SN golfers welcome for a fee.
DC
Re: back to stir the stew...sndg vs pdga
January 15, 2003 01:25AM
What exactly is the problem that the majority of the SNDG folks have with the PDGA? Is it the 5$ you have to pay to the PDGA at a tournament if you are not a member? You realize, of course, that $2 of every persons entry fee for every tournament goes to SNDG. What do we get for that money? A newsletter, no. A magazine, no. An up to date website with tournament dates and player rankings(with course difficulty taken into consideration), no. An actual board of directors with some vison for the future, no. An agreement with a marketing agency to get our sport more exposure i. e. television, no. What do we get?!?

The PDGA is an investment in the sport of disc golf.

I like the SNDG, I really do. I play in the advanced divison and right now we have a very competitive division (which is the essence of the game) and I enjoy playing against the people in this division. But what is the point? It's not like you have to try that hard to be qualified for the Championships-just show up for one tournament and you are in. At least the PDGA makes it a challange to qualify for the worlds. You either have to play in a lot of tournaments or be real good. I went to the PDGA A-Tier Bowling Green AM tournament last spring. I finished tied for 97th out of 132 in my division. Most would say I am a decent adv player in the SNDG, but I finished in the bottom 1/4 of players in this tournament because the caliber of opponents was higher.

At the very least, the PDGA offers some additional competition on which to measure yourself. If the pro tournament is not a PDGA event and a USDGC qualifier, what is the point? Great, you are the SNDG champ, but how do stack up against the best in the world? You'll never know, because you are too worried about 5 f@*!%ing dollars.

The PDGA is not some evil empire, it seems to me like they are trying to grow the sport into something bigger and better that it is now. I'll continue to pay my PDGA membership fee for as long as I feel like I am getting something for my money. I played in about 5 PDGA tounaments last year. If you figure $5 per touney, thats $25-- and I am paying only $30 to be a member anyway. So I'm out $5 for a magazine and a plan for the future. I played in about 10 SNDG tournaments last year--that's $20 to the SNDG and what do I have to show for it? Some good memories and a couple of plaques--well, if you think about it, that's pretty good. But c'mon its only $30 bucks for and investment in the sport of disc golf.

David
TheZinger
Re: back to stir the stew...sndg vs pdga
January 15, 2003 02:15AM
david,

the $2 taken out of the SN tournaments goes to the payout of the SN Championship.

and although I don't agree with everything else you said, I do understand your point

and I can't wait to see the talent coming to Baton Rouge. I have always wanted to see great Pros play on my home course. :)
And the board is a lot more up to date than it used to be. At least the points are updated on a regular basis. (based on when they're sent in, I assume). I just wish someone would change the 2002 to 2003 on the opening page.

But I tend to agree with some of David's points. I renewed this year just to be able to avoid that $5 fee if I go to any PDGA events. Already been to one with at least a couple more on the horizon. Plus, I wanted the magazine again.

Still, I will play in many more SNDG events this year and hopefully make it to Hattiesburg in August. One thing the PDGA does attempt to do is bring some consistency to the way events are run, payout, etc. That's something the SNDG needs to look at eventually. RwC
misterbogey
Re: back to stir the stew...sndg vs pdga
January 15, 2003 08:26PM
To DC:

As I understand it, the pro SNDG Championship will be PDGA sanctioned and a USDGC qualifier as I belive it should be.

The idea of the $5 for a non-member to play in an amateur SNDG tournament is what a lot of us find difficult to understand...other than a "method of convicing" non-members to join the PDGA. Notice I said AMATEUR TOURNAMENT.

I don't belive that putting down the SNDG and all of the hard work done by Jim O, the TD's and their staff that run the tournaments is a good way of convincing players to join the PDGA.

Don't misunderstand...I'm not agreeing with that "disc" fellow. I think that his comments were about as accurate as his punctuation. ;-)

Now let's all go out and kick some air!
DC
Re: back to stir the stew...sndg vs pdga
January 15, 2003 10:21PM
Misterbogey:

I agree that the am tourney does not NEED to be a PDGA event, and I don't think it it this year. The pro event is, and should continue to be a USDGC qualifier though.

I really did not intend to put down the SNDG and the hard work done by Jim. I was really only trying to point out that the PDGA is not out to just take our money. They do have some good things to offer. Jim O just got elected as the PDGA coordinator for the state of MS for goodness sake. We (I) should be looking forward to many PDGA tounaments in MS now, right?

As far as the $2 goes, does that money go only the the pro tournamnet pay out? If so, then I am back to the point about what do the ams get for their money? I really think the SNDG and PDGA can and do peacefully coexist. I just don't understand the general animosity toward the PDGA.

DC
i'mmmmmmmm........baaaaack=)

i see that some of you have grown to hate me. cool! i respect that. but still the whole reason for sndg is because the pdga got a bur in thier @#$%& years back for the south and totally forgot us. hence the southern nationals was givin birth. and was totally looked over as a passing fad that wouldnt make it. ha we fooled them didnt we. and this is the whole reason for them wanting in on our rich,loving discgolf family( i say family cause i still claim all of you as friends and family). and i see the tourneys mikey talks of. and yet as i remember some and heard of the others they only had 15 players (tops) in the open division. and this is suppose to be a major??yall all know that noone does nothing for free. the pdga sees what we have done in the past and is watching us grow every tourney. they noticed that the ams are growing faster than anyone had hope( keep on growing strong guys) and they want thier hands in what we as sndg players are creating. we are making them a future and since they had left us and out us on the back burner cause they didnt think we would make it and did now they want back in(hence sharing space w/ us in our tourneys).
by the way who says we have to be pdga to qulify for usdgc? why cant the usdgc just give us the credit we deserve? after all we have sent the pdga many great players( worm ,esay(rivers), lesley(sry i know i spelt it wrong girl),eric,toad,st.romain,and the up and coming todd rowell, not to mention the young ones that are steadily kick all our butts( lil o-matthew orum,p.p.-patric preston. that alone should almost give us credit. beside all i am saying is that we are an contributing focre in discgolf and its time we get the reconition we deserve. we should be a qulifier;but it shouldnt be because of pdga. it should be because of the numbers of players we produce and the up coming talent that we bring which if not for us would prolly not be playing or even have a clue that the pdga even exsist. besides the title of the tourney is usdgc not uspdgc as it seems to be. or is it hiding an no one notices it?
ok so i noticed that someone said the pdga worlds was here way back in time does anyone have a recent event of this magnitude? prolly not cause it should back me up on the fact that they had forgotten us.
as a far as the tv coverage goes, it has been my understanding from some of the super tours players that it came about being on tv due to someone bring out a friend in tv that loved the sport. and they inturned honord or game by filming it and hence disc tv was formed( thanks three guys from north alabama( if i heard right...i may be wrong but prove it...=).
as for those that fill us non pdga members should the 5 for every tourney we play. hey if it aint that big a deal you pdga should pool together to suport your pdga and sposor us non members in hopes of beating us on the golf course. and be out of 5 that then yall will atleast know whos pockets it went in.
to those that like me and those that dont ....PEACE!!!!!!!!!!
flyem straight and flyem far but most of all FLYEM FO FUN!!!!!!!
disc
I don't think anybody dislikes you, man. They just disagree with your opinion. You rant like a lunatic, and that's cool, but it is hard to find a real strong argument anywhere in there. The po' old Southenahs argument is a little then. If they abandoned us once, it was because we weren't turning out the numbers. Whether it's PDGA or SNQ, you don't find big numbers unless it's a two-day tournament. I have only played in two PDGA events, and I cashed in both of them by finishing 13th in Advanced. How many SNQ's can you pull that off in? This weekend I finished 4th in Lafayette, didn't cash. The truth is that we need to have more big events, like Mardi Gras madness, and have them be PDGA events to help draw more players. Plus we need sponsors. I think that for bigger events, we need the PDGA name. I am sorry, but have Professional Disc Golfers Association on your sponsorship letters sounds better than just Southern Nationals Qualifier. But for all the one-day events, we shouldn't bother with the PDGA. And for the sake of the sport, if any of you besides Mike or Will start sending out sponsorship letters, get somebody who knows how to write to proofread them.
Memphis this year is shooting for over 180 entrants. We set our record last year at 179. I told a guy the other day at GottaGoGottaThrow how many we had at the May 2002 Tournament and he had to ask me to repeat it. He was like...was that an A-Tier or B-Tier Event? I think he was to say the least, very shocked that it was not a PDGA Event. The sad thing is, he had never heard of the Southern Nationals. Of course he was a Yankee from Minnisota or something.

In any case, I think the Southern Nationals are growing in attendance. I wish we were able to compare attendance at all Events from year to year and not just certain Tournaments.

Brad
We here in Florence, AL., are dedicated to the Southern Nationals, but we are looking at getting our Spring event sanctioned as a PDGA B or C tier event. We're not getting the Nashville, Birmingham, Atlanta and Huntsville Pros like we used to. Our Am support is fantastic, but we'd like to see a return of the pros and the days of 100-player attendance. OUr biggest crowd was 144 in 1994, just weeks after a major ice storm. After that, we had to cut off entry at 100 and had full fields for several years. RwC
misterbogey
Re: back to stir the stew...sndg vs pdga
January 16, 2003 08:12PM
The $2 for the SNDG sanctioned events goes to both the pro and the am event...the SNDG does not discriminate...just those darn CANADIAN organizations! ;-p

And you to disc...please put more MEAT in your stew pot and more PUNCTUATION MARKS in your posts...geez!
31
Re: back to stir the stew...sndg vs pdga
January 16, 2003 09:12PM
The PDGA is not a Canadian organization.

The administrator, Brian (guru) lives there though. He is a paid staffer. The BOD is made up of Americans and are all elected by the membership.

Also, in the next few years the PDGA office will be located in Augusta, GA as well as as multiple dg courses in that same facility.

The PDGA BOD is debating if the WORLDS events should be held there, or rotate around the US to the club that wins the bid for each WORLDS or perhaps even every other year be at the facility...

It seems that WORLDS should be able to someday be held in other countries as well, being titled WORLDS & all...

USDGC will always be held at the Rock Hill course.
DC
Re: back to stir the stew...sndg vs pdga
January 16, 2003 09:18PM
Could some one in the know please clarify...when did the PDGA "get a bur in their @#$%&" and forget about us in the south? Or was it more like the golfers in the south abandoned the idea of being associated with the PDGA? Disc, the PDGA doesn't send or not send some guys down here in suits to run a PDGA tounament. Local people choose whether or not to be associated with the PDGA--they do not choose us. According to some of the other posts on a different thread, the PDGA asked Mobile to host the Pro Worlds last year--that doesn't sound like abandonment of the south to me.

If anyone knows, I am curious to know how the SN vs PDGA thing really went down. Was there an actual event or confrontation that happened, or was the SNDG formed as an alternative to the PDGA? I am going to cut and paste Disc here, so forgive the punctuation, but..." yall all know that noone does nothing for free"... DC
jim
Re: back to stir the stew...sndg vs pdga
January 18, 2003 08:47PM
i would like to clear something up no am was charge a $5 fee and , we also took the $5 out of the $25.00 disc that innova allows us to sell each year . i for one will never charge a s.n. player to play in his or hers championships. innova has been a big supporter of ours for years , they will become even more involved if we keep growing like we have . the disc golf world magazine is who needs to print our stuff. i have not sent nothing in in a couple years due to the nothing being put in. they should list our tournaments and our results. i will start sending it again. they only print the s.n.c due to it being a pdga event. area can do both pdga and s.n. combine. if you get the d.g.w . magazine drop rick a line to put more s.n. info in it. also send him your info and see if he will print it . thanks jim
I think Jim is right, we, each and every one of us, all loyal to SNDG, should promote it every way we can. Heaven only knows all that Jim has done for the sport these last years, he could use a little help!

All TD's need to submit their events, and results, to Rick at DGWN, at some point in time, this publication will realize that the SNDG is a force to be reckoned with.

After all, how many Ice Bowls are Southern National Events? Probably all of them in the south! Why can't we get any press. . . because no one is submitting!

I think is is worth a shot, after all, with the availabitity of email, we can submit the information, and even pictures, with little or no expence!

I say try it. . . see what happens.
I also think that TD's should submit their news to DGWN but I also believe that it is the Southern National Leaderships responsability to attempt to get the Upcoming Tournament Season Listed. Winter Mag just came out. Would be nice to get this info in the Spring Mag.

I do have the feeling that no matter how hard you try, you might be fighting an upward battle in getting anything listed in the magazine that's not PDGA.

Good luck though!
Brad
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