Where do you stand as a BoD member now or if you won a spot on the BoD what is you stance on the following question:

If a player wins the SNAC, should that player be allowed to to play in the same division the following year at the SNAC?

Your thoughts are appreciated.

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Keith "Sunshine" B

I think it would depend on how many participants were in the division he won @ the snac. If am or adv then yea should move up to snpc....if lime grandmaster where they only defeated like 3 or 4 others I think they haven't really proven they should move up. Its a debatable topic either way ya go which is why sn needs some type of player rating system even if it takes another .25 added to sn fees per player to pay for that type of process.

2011 Adv Points Champion
2011 Am player of the year

I personelly dont think that person should play in that division again. That player has won the biggest event for that division and now it is time to move up and see how you do against the big boys or the next level. I think they should play at least half of a season at the next level. If they find out they can't compete, then move back down???? The problem is that some players will never reach certain levels of play. It depends on how much time you put in. Maybe ratings would fix this, but I dont thinks so. I think every year you are going to have one or two players in a division that they should not be playing in. Some players pick up the game faster than others, does that mean they should for go a season as am and move up???? I tthink players have to learn how to manage the game before they move to the next level. They should learn how to win being ahead, come from behind, once you some of that, then it is time to move up.

Having a points race also causes players to finish out a season before moving up. Are they supposed to give that up just because they got better faster? I just think that there are so many factors that can keep someone from not moving up, but winning a Championship should not be one of
them.

Example Cam. He picked the game up so quickly, but got called out for bagging when he had only been playing for 9 months.

I personelly played 2 am tournaments. 4th, then won Rocket City Super Tour and moved up to advance. Played two years and then donated to Pro for several years playing against all the good Mobile players.

I understand your point and maybe someone can figure out a good way to handle this situation, but I dont think there is a clear solution???
If someone has one, then I would be glad to listen and if I think it would work, would be glad to present it to the BOD and see what we can do.

pb

I agree with Robby. I'd say 90% of the time yes they have to move up unless they only played like 5 people. And I've been a fan of having a ratings system for awhile now

Jacob Brown
University of Mobile, Mobile Al

A lot of factors need to be considered
.Lets say someone wins am div in a major tourney Would you consider where their score would have been in relation to advanced. A couple of wins in a division should make someone want to progress to the next level. But as we all know whether lack of confidence or others reasons there are baggers. A points system certainly will not please everyone but maybe the answer.
The humble opinion of someone that has been donating entry fees for 25 plus years for the love of the sport .

.

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Keith "Sunshine" B



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 08/10/2012 07:24PM by Keith Bodin.

Here's where I stand.

If you are playing in an age-protected division and running away from your next competition by 10+ strokes, perhaps your age-restricted status should be revoked. I believe in each player's individual rights, but not to the expense of the enjoyment by other players in that division. It seems like you would want to really challenge yourself on one of the biggest stages in the Southern Nationals by competing against the general population of players.

I do not believe advanced players should be forced to move to pro. It's just my opinion. Playing as an amateur and playing as a pro are 2 different beasts. Pros are supposed to pay taxes on cash earned. No one should be forced into that situation if they do not want to be accountable for taxes. The reason I still say "intermediate" where most say "amateur" is because of this reason. Unless you are playing for cash, you are an amateur player. Advanced, Intermediate, and Novice are all Ams.

My opinion is that the top 10%-15% of Intermediate players in the SNAC should be moved up to Advanced. You just beat 90% of the best Intermediate players in a tournament series that hails from over 10 states in the Southeast. It's time to move up. After looking at data from last year's SNAC, it appears most players do move up from Intermediate.

Keith here's a quick answer....the guy your talking about has been bagging for 2 years lol.

2011 Adv Points Champion
2011 Am player of the year

Here is where I stand:

It has never been about money for me; it is all about enjoyment, playing with my friends and getting some exercise. The 60 and over Senior Grand Masters have the same aches and pains, struggle with college tuition, mortgages, retirement, grandchildren, etc. and thoroughly enjoy each others company on the course. I have given back to the sport by running tournaments including one Am and one Pro championship. I will be TDing Wall Doxey September 22 and 23 and trying to get to the $2,500 mark in sponsorship money.

As it happens I won the Bud Hill Inaugural Masters Tournament by exactly 10 strokes. It was a fluke. I was incredibly lucky on the short course. If the BOD says that I can no longer compete with my friends but must donate my entry fee to those less than 1/3 of my age I will not be running or playing in any more SNDG sanctioned events. Are there any of the other older guys who feel the same way?

Gary Wagoner

I believe that he(Keith) is talking about the "Lifer's". They will play Advanced or Advanced Masters for life.


Grow a pair...move up and give it a shot. You might win and be able to stop selling discs to unsuspecting people for extra $$$$$.

Quote
T Bo
If you are playing in an age-protected division and running away from your next competition by 10+ strokes, perhaps your age-restricted status should be revoked. I believe in each player's individual rights, but not to the expense of the enjoyment by other players in that division. It seems like you would want to really challenge yourself on one of the biggest stages in the Southern Nationals by competing against the general population of players.

Are you referring to pro age protected divisions or am age protected divisions?

Quote
T Bo
I do not believe advanced players should be forced to move to pro. It's just my opinion. Playing as an amateur and playing as a pro are 2 different beasts. Pros are supposed to pay taxes on cash earned. No one should be forced into that situation if they do not want to be accountable for taxes. The reason I still say "intermediate" where most say "amateur" is because of this reason. Unless you are playing for cash, you are an amateur player. Advanced, Intermediate, and Novice are all Ams.

I am really confused are you saying if a 60 year old guy beats his division by 10 strokes the should move to the open division, but if a 25 year old is winning advance by 10 strokes he should not be forced to play open?

Are you Obama?

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Keith "Sunshine" B

I am referring to am age protected divisions. It was just a suggestion, because I have heard a lot of concern from you and other advanced masters players about certain people bagging in their division.

So, you are ok with players remaining in advanced masters and sweeping the division? Cool, let's move on to more important topics than a personal vendetta against a couple of players. Next question please.

Gary, I am referring to when "Sunshine" has stated how upset he is with a couple of specific players bagging in his division. "Sunshine" was asking a very specific question about how to correct the problem. I offered a possible solution. Obviously, it is not a good one. No decision this drastic would be made without the voice of the players, anyway. I should have just offered the same views as everyone above. "It's complicated." "It just depends.". Etc...Etc..., I looked into the individual's "Sunshine" is referring to and tried to offer a real, tangible solution. No fluff. No BS. I had the cajones to offer a solution I knew would be unpopular.

Next time, I will just blow smoke up your_____, and we can just move on in our conversation. Get some skills and you won't have to complain about those mean, nasty baggers anymore.

the best possible answer to this is have ratings or something similiar. certain ratings for each division. if you pass the max rating for a division you must move up. I do agree with Gary. sometimes people just have the best day of their life and win a tournament. if they are normally sub par players, their rating would show it and they wouldnt be forced to move up. Now if that performance pushed their rating over the maximum allowed, then they are forced up.

the whole thing about some people can be AMS for life and never move up despite how good they are is just dumb. They "play only for fun and not for money" is a dumb excuse. Everyone plays for fun so you should be in the division you are best suited for.

Jacob Brown
University of Mobile, Mobile Al

to add onto that, If a junior player is beating the crap out of the rest of the juniors then thats just great for him. I dont think a junior should be forced to play elsewhere until they reach the max age. just my opinion.

This is only for Juniors. no other division

Jacob Brown
University of Mobile, Mobile Al

T Bo,
thank your response....

" I am referring to when "Sunshine" has stated how upset he is with a couple of specific players bagging in his division. "Sunshine" was asking a very specific question about how to correct the problem"

If you look at my stats you will see I play several different divisions (Advance, Advance Masters and Pro Masters) please explain to us what division is " his" division....

Good Luck with the BoD elections!

BTW the question was asked because several players want an answer to the question not just me....

I will leave the rest of my comments off this thread, Mr. Weatherman!

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Keith "Sunshine" B

Sorry Keith, I tend to lose my temper when being compared to Obama. I think we can both agree that is a huge insult.

H.E. Double Hockey sticks. I don't know the answer to your question man. The best response would be to just say its worth starting a dialogue. We generate some alternatives and come up with a solution that is most agreeable. I kind of mistook the original question as a proposal to brainstorm solutions. I didn't realize I was expected to come up with a water-tight solution to a problem that has plagued the league for quite a while.

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T Bo
Sorry Keith, I tend to lose my temper when being compared to Obama. I think we can both agree that is a huge insult.

You are correct and I apologize for the reference!

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Keith "Sunshine" B

No doubt if you win the SNAC in AM or ADV... MOVE UP!!!!!... If you win in MAsters and beat a field of more than 4 or 5... then yea move up too. This year's winner in ADV Masters should for sure move up... Gonna be like 28 of us... That will be a true measure of exactly how good you are. Think there are 2 past champions playing in this years snac in the MAster division...
And honestly, after you win a series championship in a lower division, what else do you have to accomplish. Just a thought

EXACTLY ^^^^^

So for those BOD members and Candidates who have or intend to respond to the original question, it would be helpful to clarify whether you would simply encourage a move up or actually offer a rule change on the issue requiring a move up and if so would you actually follow that rule if asked regarding a particular player or vote for an edict contrary to the rule a week before the event without re-writing the rule if you thought the rule should have been written differently.

I would "encourage" a move up and vote for making a rule that makes players play their sn rating which I hope gets voted in.

2011 Adv Points Champion
2011 Am player of the year

If I would vote a rule into place it would need to have a set number players in a division. For example this year if the grandmaster division has a possibility of 4 players I believe, I wouldn't have a problem with the winner playing again next year.

I want to preface these comments by saying that I have never played as an amateur so if someone chimes in by saying that Gary does not know what he is talking about I will concede that he is probably right. I have not paid much attention to the sand bagging thing but it seems to generate the most consternation among the amateur ranks. As an outsider to the issue here are my thoughts.

It seems to me that there can only be two reasons a person would compete in a division grossly below his skill level: glory or money. Since there is very little glory in steamrolling the competition it must be the money. Yes, Ams play for merchandise but discs are a fungible commodity, that is, something that can readily be converted to cash.

Ranking may be a solution, but I do not see that happening in the near term. It also begs a lot of questions about documentation, enforcement, penalties, etc., and I am against anything that adds to the burden on a TD. If the players will not police themselves then the logical solution is to reduce the amount of merchandise awarded to the winner.

Slash Am entry fees. A trophy and a disc or two is all that would be awarded the winner. I do not like this solution but it would work. In most sports all the Ams get is a trophy.

Keep Am fees about where they are and give half the money to the Pro payout or maybe to a charity. I do not like this either because it seems fundamentally unfair to the Ams.

A plausible solution may be to flight the Am divisions like many ball golf tournaments do. The Am and Am Advanced divisions are divided into three flights with 50% going to the top flight, 30% going to the middle flight and 20% going to the last flight. Every flight would receive a first place trophy (which also reduces the payout) and their respective share of the merchandise. The baggers can fight it out for half of their customary winnings and the legitimate players will have a fair shot at trophies and discs.

Gary Wagoner

One option might be to simply not allow a player to win the same division two years in a row. You don't have to force anyone to permanently move up or move over (Adv Master to Advanced) if they win the title one year. However, they may wish to move to a different division at least some or all of the time in the following season where they are allowed to win that title that year. Once they are prevented for one year being able to win the title, they can return to that division the following year if it's apparent they aren't competitive in a higher division or perhaps don't wish to play with younger players.

Some players will never get better than a skill level and it isn't fair to permanently force them to move up or out. However, it's also fair to exclude them from that title for one year to allow others at that level to win the title once in a while.

No one bags in any open division, people who are whipping pro and grand master open... Tough luck to all the others I say.

Anyone who wins a championship in an AM division needs to move up and test the waters a FEW tournaments. If you can't hang, move back down.

I don't think the question has anything to do with the Pro divisions.

Am's can move to Adv and Masters can move to Adv. The only one getting forced to Pro would be the Adv players.

I know it doesn't Eric, I believe Gary or someone confused an earlier post by someone thinking they meant a pro division.

Let's just all say it, Daniel Zich, move up! Lol

I did not ask start this thread with one person in mind. Please don't try to put words in my mouth. Believe me if I wanted to call someone out I would do just that. Thank you for all the input so far.....at least it is a civil conversation.

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Keith "Sunshine" B

Well said Mr Wagoner!

I think there should be a rule in place to force past winners of championship events in the AM divisions to move up . I do however think that there should be a size of field note in the guideline. I don't think the winner of this year's Adv grand master should necessarly move up to pro grand master after only beating 3 others in the SNAC.
Another problem you have in my area ( don't know about anywhere else) We hardly ever have the divisions at our events to play all these different master divisions.
Here's my problem with this.... Let's say I win the SNAC this weekend in ADV Master... Next event I play I am supposed to play Pro Master... Well, I'm the only one who signs up in the Pro master division. TD says well I guess you will have to play open... So now I have went from ADV master one weekend to open the next. We have alot of things like that that need to be addressed. I hope to get to start doing that on SEPT 3th.