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Cheaters and how to resolve the issue!

Posted by Trackin01 
Re: Cheaters and how to resolve the issue!
October 30, 2012 06:20PM
I do not see a upside to multiple scorecards:

1. It is in conflict with the PDGA rules which stipulate a single card per group.

2. If a tournament has two 18 hole courses and 3 rounds that is 18 x 3 x 2 = 108 cards. If each player gets his own card that is 432 cards in the event the tournament fills up. Do not forget to include 438 plastic bags in case it rains and 438 pencils. A little more expense for the TD?

3. Everyone turns in their own card at their own pace so they will get mixed up. Instead of checking 36 cards the TD has to check 144 cards. A little more work for the TD?

4. In the event of a disputed score the TD now has to settle it by getting the affected group together after the round is over instead of the players resolving it immediately after the hole. There is no "official" card. A little more work for the TD?

5. Suppose a group says that this is nuts and refuses to keep multiple scorecards. Will the TD disqualify them for refusal to deviate from the PDGA rules?

Instead of settling a disputed score immediately after the hole as required by the PDGA rules it is now added to the TDs plate. Trackin01, you have committed to institute this procedure. Please let me know how it turns out.

Gary Wagoner



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 10/30/2012 06:34PM by Gary Wagoner.
Re: Cheaters and how to resolve the issue!
October 31, 2012 11:50AM
That's some REALLY good points.......
Re: Cheaters and how to resolve the issue!
October 31, 2012 12:58PM
Well... How about a person not playing in the event take score? There could be one assigned to each group.
Anonymous User
Re: Cheaters and how to resolve the issue!
October 31, 2012 02:02PM
Where can you find 18 volunteers ? I'm sure you could pick up 10 Jose's and 8 Miguel's at the local Home Depot at 6am on tournament day...
Re: Cheaters and how to resolve the issue!
October 31, 2012 02:05PM
That would work. Lol
Re: Cheaters and how to resolve the issue!
November 01, 2012 09:32AM
Gary Wagoner Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I do not see a upside to multiple scorecards:
>
> 1. It is in conflict with the PDGA rules which
> stipulate a single card per group.
>
> 2. If a tournament has two 18 hole courses and 3
> rounds that is 18 x 3 x 2 = 108 cards. If each
> player gets his own card that is 432 cards in the
> event the tournament fills up. Do not forget to
> include 438 plastic bags in case it rains and 438
> pencils. A little more expense for the TD?
>
> 3. Everyone turns in their own card at their own
> pace so they will get mixed up. Instead of
> checking 36 cards the TD has to check 144 cards.
> A little more work for the TD?
>
> 4. In the event of a disputed score the TD now has
> to settle it by getting the affected group
> together after the round is over instead of the
> players resolving it immediately after the hole.
> There is no "official" card. A little more work
> for the TD?
>
> 5. Suppose a group says that this is nuts and
> refuses to keep multiple scorecards. Will the TD
> disqualify them for refusal to deviate from the
> PDGA rules?
>
> Instead of settling a disputed score immediately
> after the hole as required by the PDGA rules it is
> now added to the TDs plate. Trackin01, you have
> committed to institute this procedure. Please let
> me know how it turns out.
>
> Gary Wagoner

Gary I must of opened a can of worms with you. Good research and good points made here. However, If the TD is the only person sitting at the table and doing everything himself with absolutely no help, this conclusion you have made would be extremely challenging. If a person is willing to help, I will quickly say here is something you can do. Or I just step up and find someone that has helped and ask them for help. I have yet had a person say "NO"

#1 Regardless is the One card per group rule is recommended, I have been to multiple "BIG" PDGA events that use this method. I don't go to the extreme of the USDGC and make each person use a card, but at least 2 players. I tried a 4 person card event once and yes that was a bit too much. Again, I have always had help with people willing to count scores in the end.

#2 The expense of printing scorecards is not expensive. I can print three scorecards on one sheet of cardstock. Besides, if it is too expensive for you, then I suggest maybe just using this method at the larger events where more money is involved where players tend to try and cheat. Use that sponsorship money if you raise it.

#3 In your players meeting make sure it is understood that ALL players turn in their card as a group. If two cards are not turned in at the same time, I have set it to the side and usually by the time I have finished with the cards it has been turn in. Not everyone listens to those players meetings.

#4 Wouldn't you have to settle a disputed score regardless in the same way? I have had to chase guys down and gather the whole group over a disputed score when there was one card. The process is still the same. But I do understand about the official card, thats why a group decision on that particular hole has to be determined. It happened in Jonesboro. 3 guys agreed on one thing while the 4th guy denied it. Had to go with the group decision.

#5 That is a great question and tough to answer. Disqualifing over that might not be an option for me. Stroke the whole card would be considered for sure. If you are serious about it and there is multiple cards of your division, then a penalty should be made. If you don't stand up for what your doing, then those players will just keep doing it and not take your methods serious. Kind of like disqualifying someone for drinking a beer during a round in a tournament. I even witness someone get disqualified for having his beer on ice in a rolling cart during the 1st round of a big PDGA event. Your event will be taken as serious as you want to make it. Professionalism is as much work on you as you want to make it too. If you don't want to put in the effort to at least try and solve this issue, then don't bother with it and allow it to occur over and over again.

Your wanting once person to call all scores out and his own during the round and frankly it rarely happens in the Amateur divisions. Especially when someone is a seasoned Amateur compared to someone who is new. The seasoned Amateur will take scores and try something shady when the new Amateur would be clueless. Most of the time I hear the new Amateur is affraid to call a seasoned Amateur out on a call. Some people are just not comforable with conflict.

The two card method isn't the sure fire fix here, but it is a method that I have used and cheating is less likely to occur when two players are taken score. That way one person doesn't have control of everyone's score with one card. As time moves forward, these new technologies are getting better an I am seeing many players with a disc golf app. They are using it regularly during rounds.
Re: Cheaters and how to resolve the issue!
November 01, 2012 02:02PM
Trackin01,

No can of worms here. I respect your opinion and applaud your initiative to try something new. I just think multiple score cards generate more problems than they solve and would not like to see this as a generally accepted practice for the reasons I have stated. My basic objection can be found in an old adage: "A man with one watch always knows what time it is; a man with two watches is never sure." I am sincere about wanting to know how it works out for you.

At my players meeting I take a minute to demonstrate the proper way to record scores and emphasize that everyone follow that procedure and state that anyone on the card can look at the card at any time. So far the results have proved satisfactory.

Gary



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 11/01/2012 02:26PM by Gary Wagoner.
Re: Cheaters and how to resolve the issue!
November 01, 2012 08:25PM
those who cheat are keeping score at the time. They call out their correct score and then proceed to write down a lower number. If their the last person holding the card you may not catch it unless you know their score in relation to your own
Re: Cheaters and how to resolve the issue!
November 01, 2012 08:29PM
drtdcggdc
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