This past weekend I had the unfortunate spot of playing behind a group of Pro Masters in the Back Bay Battle in Biloxi Mississippi. This a very nice and beautyfull course that with a little time and love will develop into a great event. While in the first round I had a great time but not a great score. The second round was entirely different. Watching these Pro players delay and procrastinate between each and every shot of every player on their card. The pace of play was so painfully slow the two groups of novice players behind my card called the TD to complain. There should never be THREE OPEN HOLES ahead of any group EVER...with two or three groups waiting behind them to play with darkness rapidly approaching. I dont want this thread to call anyone out BUTT you know who you are.... Look behind you, Look ahead, Go to your disc and be ready to throw when it's your turn. These are simple things that every Novice players need to know and Pro Players should never forget...

Where they violating time requirements? If they where not I don't think there is anything that can be done unless you change the rules of play. Different players play at a different pace. A player shouldn't be hurried if they are within their allotted time and a player shouldn't be slowed either by excessive time. That is why there are rules. The player can't be responsible for daylight. They can choose to change their play in consideration but can not be forced.

Sounds like a clear violation of PDGA rule 3.2:

All competitors shall play without undue delay and will make every effort to keep up with the group in front of them. Players are required to quickly move from the completion of one hole to the tee area of the next hole. Also, while advancing down the fairway, the player shall not unduly delay play by his or her actions.

A player causing undue delays may be issued an excessive time violation by tournament officials. Please see PDGA Official Rules of Disc Golf 804.01 Excessive Time regarding specific penalties.

Rule 804.01 Excessive Time:

A maximum of 30 seconds is allowed to each player to make a throw after:

The previous player has thrown; and,

The player has had a reasonable amount of time to arrive at the disc; and,

The playing area is clear and free of distractions.

A player shall receive a warning for the first excessive time violation. The player shall be @#$%& one penalty throw for each subsequent excessive time violation in the same round.

I feel your pain Jim! I was unfortunately paired with Casey Cox first round. This kid seriously needs to do something different! He literally takes the full 30 seconds or more with every single shot! Even a 12' foot putt. Seriously! The second round I had the unfortunate circumstance of playing with both Casey & Logan Weiss. Logan is equally as slow. More than that he seemed to not even try to get to his shot before everyone else in the group was there & had thrown out of turn because of waiting so long. Multiple times! Everyone in both groups openly expressed their distaste for this ridiculous behavior. Which if anything slowed the two of them down even more. It must be some type of passive aggressive way of lashing out or something. I don't get it. I played so badly yesterday that I even surprised myself. I made stupid mistakes that I can't ever remember making before. As I was riding home the only thing I could come up with was that it is very hard to keep your head in the game & throw good shots when you have to wait 10-15 minutes in between your drive & your putt. It was a true test of patience & perseverance. Which I undoubtedly failed.

It was a pleasure playing with you, Bernie. I'm sorry you were so dissatisfied with your play and that so many external factors were the cause of it. Take care.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Casey Cox
"If you aint first, you're last." -- Ricky Bobby's daddy

2007-2008 SN Amateur Player of the Year
SN advanced single season points record holder - 466 (2007-2008)
SN advanced single season wins record holder - 16 (2007-2008)
SN advanced single season score record holder - 53.40 (2007-2008)

The real question is... Who beat who?

Bernie beat me... the only thing I can come up with is that I didn't take my time enough.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Casey Cox
"If you aint first, you're last." -- Ricky Bobby's daddy

2007-2008 SN Amateur Player of the Year
SN advanced single season points record holder - 466 (2007-2008)
SN advanced single season wins record holder - 16 (2007-2008)
SN advanced single season score record holder - 53.40 (2007-2008)

Logan > Aubrey > Casey , no wonder you mad Aubrey, got beat by a youngun

The order is inconsequential. They both would be doing themselves & the people they play with a favor by learning to play in a more expeditious manner.

There were a couple of people that stepped off almost every putt in my group before they putted. I am so used to it that I did not think much about it. Combine that with the fact we were playing longs and the Novice division were playing short tees and I see the recipe for a long round. Sorry to those that were affected.
Shane

Transparency of information breeds self correcting behavior!

Outside of the backup at Hole #5, we didn't deal with slow play much in Ams, but I definitely understand the gripe. While I dont chime in too much because I understand that you are alotted a certain amount of time, it is very frustrating to see so much time be taken per shot. My personal opinion is the longer you spend thinking that shot over, the more its in your head. Maybe thats just me

Total # of throws for the entire 2nd Open card = 331. Total # of throws for the entire 3rd Open card = 335. Third card finishes while the 2nd card still has at least 4 holes to throw....something ain't right.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 02/04/2013 01:24PM by hobbit489.

Don't think just sink...what's really frustrating is when after all their antics they stillll miss the putt in which case I usually reply all that for that? Works pretty well try it next time .

BMB

I normally play better when i have no delays in a round. I dont like waiting.

Nick Robichaux
Acadiana Disc Golf Assoiciation and Flight Club Disc Golf
PDGA# 54519

SN = Snail Nation.... it has been quite a while since I have heard a SN TD stress speed of play!!! At The Fairhope Jubilee the group in front of us 2nd round was 7 holes behind the group in front of them. Insane!!! It has been a problem in the past and will be a problem in the Future!!! TDs stressing speed of play is the only answer... even that will not completely solve the problem!!

hobbit489 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Total # of throws for the entire 2nd Open card =
> 331. Total # of throws for the entire 3rd Open
> card = 335. Third card finishes while the 2nd
> card still has at least 4 holes to
> throw....something ain't right.

The group in front of us was more like 7 holes ahead by the end of the round.

Stepping off your putts adds 3-4 minutes to a round. Out of the way, long transitions, blind shots and OBs add more time looking for disc or sending a spotter ahead. Ive played hundreds of tournament rounds and after seeing the course I thought it would take longer than it did. Tds didnt start groups on 5 or (I believe) on 6 so there was likely 2 or 3 empty holes whenever a group finished 5. Our slow group of masters had 4 "3"s and 1 "4" on hole 5. We had two other delays during round for reasons other than already mentioned on holes 11 &12. Other wise rounds flowed as I would expect 5/card to- just another average tournament pace.
We disc golfers often have unrealistic expectations about this game.

DD0710 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Stepping off your putts adds 3-4 minutes to a
> round. Out of the way, long transitions, blind
> shots and OBs add more time looking for disc or
> sending a spotter ahead. Ive played hundreds of
> tournament rounds and after seeing the course I
> thought it would take longer than it did. Tds
> didnt start groups on 5 or (I believe) on 6 so
> there was likely 2 or 3 empty holes whenever a
> group finished 5. Our slow group of masters had 4
> "3"s and 1 "4" on hole 5. We had two other delays
> during round for reasons other than already
> mentioned on holes 11 &12. Other wise rounds
> flowed as I would expect 5/card to- just another
> average tournament pace.
> We disc golfers often have unrealistic
> expectations about this game.

It's nice that there are some sensible disc golfers...

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Casey Cox
"If you aint first, you're last." -- Ricky Bobby's daddy

2007-2008 SN Amateur Player of the Year
SN advanced single season points record holder - 466 (2007-2008)
SN advanced single season wins record holder - 16 (2007-2008)
SN advanced single season score record holder - 53.40 (2007-2008)

BamaJim Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> This past weekend I had the unfortunate spot of
> playing behind a group of Pro Masters in the Back
> Bay Battle in Biloxi Mississippi. This a very nice
> and beautyfull course that with a little time and
> love will develop into a great event. While in the
> first round I had a great time but not a great
> score. The second round was entirely different.
> Watching these Pro players delay and procrastinate
> between each and every shot of every player on
> their card. The pace of play was so painfully slow
> the two groups of novice players behind my card
> called the TD to complain. There should never be
> THREE OPEN HOLES ahead of any group EVER...with
> two or three groups waiting behind them to play
> with darkness rapidly approaching. I dont want
> this thread to call anyone out BUTT you know who
> you are.... Look behind you, Look ahead, Go to
> your disc and be ready to throw when it's your
> turn. These are simple things that every Novice
> players need to know and Pro Players should never
> forget...


Your score = 146
Average score of said group = 124

How does this 11 stroke per round deficit qualify you to instruct them on how to play the game? Obviously their deliberate play awarded them considerably lower scores. Yet you wish to convince them that you and Bernie's strategy of hurry up and get in as many throws as possible before the round is over is somehow better. Next you will have us believe that the Father of Disc Golf was "Speedy" Ed.

"Slow and Steady wins the race"

The Turtle Putt King has spoken!

You guys are each going to your respective extreme. While we do not take nearly as long as ball golf to play, I just calculated how long it should take a group of 5 people to play 22 holes. I figured in walking time between holes and a few extra throws per hole. If everyone sticks to the 30 second per throw rule, it should not take more than 3 hours to play this round. Honest question, how long did it take to play these rounds?

First tourney on a new course and 22 holes with max number of players.... What do you expect???? It is going to take a while!!! That being said... speed of play needs to be stressed by TDs EVERYWHERE!!!!!

As a TD, aside from stressing speed of play, what else could be done to prevent slow play from happening during future events?

Thank you in advance for your suggestions!

ecotrex Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> As a TD, aside from stressing speed of play, what
> else could be done to prevent slow play from
> happening during future events?
>
> Thank you in advance for your suggestions!


1. Women take longer to play than men. I am not being critical; just stating a fact. Avoid five women on a card.

2. When organizing the leaderboard put as many open holes behind of the womens groups as possible.

3. If you are playing two courses put the ams on the easier course during the first round. This will not help during an individual round but should help in getting the second round underway sooner.

4. Place spotters on blind holes or holes which are susceptible to lost discs.

5. When organizing the leader board make sure that at least one person on each card is a local or otherwise familiar with the course.

6. If you are not playing in the tournament, walk the course backwards about half way through the round. If you come upon a group with three open holes ahead of them a three groups stacked up behind them you will be justified in asking them to stand aside. If not that, then you could walk with them and start stroking the individuals for excessive time.

7. Some players are notorious for being slow. If you know who they are avoid putting them together on a first round card.

Gary Wagoner

Wow Gary, looks like you've put a lot of thought into this.
I can tell you that no group waited on our group due to our "slow" play at Hiller.
We waited just like everyone else. I guess it's easy to single us out since there are so few of us.
I'm not sure why you would put all Women in the same bucket by stating "women take longer to play than men".
Just like the Men's field, some Women take longer than others on their shots.
Seriously? You should probably look at scores from recent tournaments.

Good luck speeding up the sport. I've played since the early 90's all over the country, both PDGA and SN. I suggest you place blame elsewhere.

Lynn

At usdgc they allowed 8 min per hole but switched to 10 min per hole few years ago. These are long difficult holes but half of them can be played by two groups at once (1 group putting, next group teeing) and these are the best players in the world with 4 man groups. 22 holes at 10
min per hole is 3hrs 40 min. With 5 players in a group in tornament play I would expect group times to vary between 3-4hr round depending on course and what hole u start on, especially with 22 holes. Pdga official walks with lead groups at World Championships but they dont make calls unless appealed to by the group.

I wasnt at this tournament but i say if a person takes over 30 sec to get to there disc and throw stroke them and if they catch feelings so be it thats why there's rules to the game!!!!

Chunk Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> BamaJim Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > This past weekend I had the unfortunate spot of
> > playing behind a group of Pro Masters in the
> Back
> > Bay Battle in Biloxi Mississippi. This a very
> nice
> > and beautyfull course that with a little time
> and
> > love will develop into a great event. While in
> the
> > first round I had a great time but not a great
> > score. The second round was entirely different.
> > Watching these Pro players delay and
> procrastinate
> > between each and every shot of every player on
> > their card. The pace of play was so painfully
> slow
> > the two groups of novice players behind my card
> > called the TD to complain. There should never
> be
> > THREE OPEN HOLES ahead of any group EVER...with
> > two or three groups waiting behind them to play
> > with darkness rapidly approaching. I dont want
> > this thread to call anyone out BUTT you know
> who
> > you are.... Look behind you, Look ahead, Go to
> > your disc and be ready to throw when it's your
> > turn. These are simple things that every Novice
> > players need to know and Pro Players should
> never
> > forget...
>
>
> Your score = 146
> Average score of said group = 124
>
> How does this 11 stroke per round deficit qualify
> you to instruct them on how to play the game?
> Obviously their deliberate play awarded them
> considerably lower scores. Yet you wish to
> convince them that you and Bernie's strategy of
> hurry up and get in as many throws as possible
> before the round is over is somehow better. Next
> you will have us believe that the Father of Disc
> Golf was "Speedy" Ed.
>
> "Slow and Steady wins the race"
>
> The Turtle Putt King has spoken!


Give me a break Chunk! I know you want to defend your boy, but his extremely slow play benefits nobody. Not even him. & you know it.

& if your ridiculous per stroke example you gave above is true. Why aren't you guys winning more "race"es? I'll put my casually deliberate style of play up against you guys ridiculously intentionally slow play any day! Why dont we go back & compare the last few years results? You see the rest of us(including 95% of touring pros)are aware of our surroundings & ready to play by the time we arrive at our lie. Which doesn't seem unrealistic or out of reach to the rest of us.

To sum it up. You can continue going against the grain forever if you like, but history would prove that it isn't working. & the fact the Bama Jim threw 11 more shots per round & still waited on every hole is ridiculous. & the situation in our group was exponentially worse. The group in front of us was at least 7-9 holes ahead of us by the end of the round! It wasn't only Logan, but when you put two ridiculously slow players in one group it becomes nearly unbearable for the rest of us.

Looks like sooner rather than later we need to invest in some stopwatches.

You know it's bad when people are proud to be slow.

I think old chunk might just be a little bit stubborn.

BOOOOOM. Well said, Lynn!


Lynn Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Wow Gary, looks like you've put a lot of thought
> into this.
> I can tell you that no group waited on our group
> due to our "slow" play at Hiller.
> We waited just like everyone else. I guess it's
> easy to single us out since there are so few of
> us.
> I'm not sure why you would put all Women in the
> same bucket by stating "women take longer to play
> than men".
> Just like the Men's field, some Women take longer
> than others on their shots.
> Seriously? You should probably look at scores from
> recent tournaments.
>
> Good luck speeding up the sport. I've played
> since the early 90's all over the country, both
> PDGA and SN. I suggest you place blame
> elsewhere.
>
> Lynn

Sara K. Senkbeil
sks16@students.uwf.edu