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Divisions, Baggers, Championships, & more

Posted by niklpenny 
Divisions, Baggers, Championships, & more
April 01, 2013 01:45AM
If you wanna get rid of sandbaggin then that is easy, dont allow players to move up or down, until after the current season. So if you started the season as a pro and you dont cash the entire season, then you can move down to advanced, but you gotta stay in advanced a whole season to move back up, etc.. etc..if a whole season seems to long, then make it half season's, but if you move divisions, you forfeit all points earned in the division you are leaving. Also I think if your on the invitation list for a division for the championships, in order to move down, you have to not accept that invitation. So if your invited pro and play in the championships as pro, you cannot step down to advanced the next season. you can also make rules like if you get invited to the SNAC as an intermediate player, or finish in the top say 50 spots, then you are forced to move up the advanced division next season. And so on and so forth, this will stop baggin and improve division depth and quality. I played a doubles tournament with a guy who played intermediate, and just dominated, couple tournaments later, he played doubles AM, the very next day he played open pro, this should not happen.There are lots of ways we can improve the divisions. If a player has never played an SN tournament, and does not have a pdga record either, they should be forced to play novice. Once you cash in novice I believe you should be automatically advanced, this would be the only division changes I would make during a season. I would also say you need more points to play in the championship than just the automatically earned 2 points. Say 20, this would force you to either beat some people or play in ten tournaments, either of which i think would qualify you, but just simply playing once, and coming in dead last and earning 2 points, does not qualify you for a championship. This would incourage the real golfers to actually play more tournaments and compete harder. Maybe more points for more in depth divisions like AM, like say 50 points. then if the championship does not fill up with these you can then open it up to guys with 45 points, so on and so forth. I have played a few tournaments where the same guys in AM are shooting even with or better than the advanced and even pro divisions, now if there game has improved that much this season and their just on point, and they are cashing multiple events all season and they make the SNAC Invitation List, That's Great...Next Season they need to get Automatically moved up, so they can have the challenge of better players, and more competition, and the division can have the proper skill depth. Lets say we have a half season split Cut Off Day, where if you were automatically moved up a division, and you have played in X amount of tournaments, and have not cashed or have not earned more than X amount of points, then you can move back down to your previous division. There are alot of restructuring idea's like this that can be put in place to try and improve the divisions, the championships, and the overall tournament play in the southern nationals. I am a Player and a Tournament Director and would love to Help the SN improve and Grow. I would be happy to help with any restructuring or changes if the SN does in fact entertain the idea of some better systems, even if they don't like any of my idea's, I would be happy to help them come up with something that they do like. Contact me anytime.

I would actually like to hear what some of the players, and some of the tournament directors out there think:
Maybe we can come up with some great ideas via collective brainstorming if we can follow this process flow

Stage 1-Everyone post an idea that actually pertains to the focal points at hand, Idea's should be constructive(New Rules or Existing Changes --should be presented as if their is currently no rules in place at all), Idea's should be positive(your opinion towards an old rule is a negative statement), Idea's should be productive(When presenting an Idea, reasoning as to why a current rule/policy is bad, or dumb, or any other deconstruction is non-productive), Idea's need to be free flowing without criticism(Brainstorm process needs to happen without anyone commenting on anyone else's idea, without arguing about anyone else's idea, without attacking anyone, and without hindering in anyway).
So if you don't like someone's idea, or think it's downright ridiculous, either post a better idea, or don't say anything at all, Non-Idea comments only cause non-productive arguments, and deter from the actual constructive thought process, hindering free flow process. If people are needlessly arguing, posting pointless personal attacks(causing defensive or counterattack statements), posting off topic, counter-intuitive, personal conversation or images/advertisements, it stops the group from focusing on the actual point and delay's new idea's from being posted, and can even discourage others from posting their Idea's, hindering the productivity.
Stage 2-Outline created by project team. Idea's are screened for productivity, positivity, and constructive logic. Idea's are then formed into a general base plan outline.
Stage 3-Outline is voted on by a panel consisting of randomly selected representatives from each division and state, Club Presidents, Course Designers, Tournaments Directors, and SN Board Members. "No" votes should have explanation and/or New Idea/Fix
Stage 4-Project team make's changes resulting from voting panel and then finalize's plan.
Stage 5-SN BOD reviews plan and votes on each line item
Stage 6-Changes Updated, and made known to public

Central Louisiana Disc Golf Association President
Ryan Niccolini PDGA#55907
Re: Divisions, Baggers, Championships, & more
April 01, 2013 10:12AM
And a hush filled the room :-)
oh wait the room is empty :-) lol
Re: Divisions, Baggers, Championships, & more
April 01, 2013 11:15AM
So you think that once you reach a skill level you stay that good FOREVER!!!! Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha.... the amount of time devoted has a lot to do with how good you are. REAL LIFE doesn't care about your disc golf game!!!! Mentally and physically things change.... and it doesn't take forever for it to happen!! Bagging is a problem- but it is best dealt with on a LOCAL level.... when you are good enough to win- you will!!! It is that simple.... some players are am for life... that doesn't mean that they should quit playing... play for the fun and enjoyment and the rest will fall into place!!! Oh yeah, be careful climbing off that soapbox!!!! It can be a rude landing!!!!! LOL
Re: Divisions, Baggers, Championships, & more
April 01, 2013 11:48AM
There will always be bagging....there is no solution. Ratings are the only way to lower bagging. If we go to ratings, SN will not compete with pdga. So, my honest opinion is to leave SN alone. It takes money to have nice things and thats something pdga has that SN doesn't. If SN has more fees for tournaments though, TD's will just host pdga events because it can attract more players than SN.
Re: Divisions, Baggers, Championships, & more
April 01, 2013 11:54AM
Dustin is right... bagging is the least of SNs problems !!!!!
Re: Divisions, Baggers, Championships, & more
April 01, 2013 12:08PM
The rule that is in place for bagging isn't a bad one. Its just there is no punishment for bagging except for Dillon. If you have been to a SN Championship, you will notice that there isn't many 2 point players that show up and if there is, they are locals. The top however many get an invite before everyone and then it goes to the lower point guys. No one should be turned down from an event because of his skill level especially if it is his home town. My opinion would be not to give the top guys a first bid at the championships. Just because they play in 40 events in the SN doesn't mean they are any better than the next one. Just means they spent more money than the next guy they may or may not could have afforded it. If it was based on skill level it would be different but points are a joke.
Re: Divisions, Baggers, Championships, & more
April 02, 2013 09:23AM
Ok so what exactly are the current rules regarding divisions? I cashed in Open in a small one day tournament in October 2012 for $30.00, which I accepted. I would like to play in the Dogwood, but doubt very seriously that I would be competitive at all in open, especially with Orgill in the mix. Am I required to play Open or can I play advanced? I don't think anyone would accuse me of baggin based on my stats.

Thomas
Re: Divisions, Baggers, Championships, & more
April 02, 2013 11:29AM
You must play in 4 tourneys without cashing to drop back down.... if you have not you are stuck in Open. Good luck!!
Re: Divisions, Baggers, Championships, & more
April 02, 2013 01:33PM
Well that sucks! May have to save that $80 for vacation the following week.
Re: Divisions, Baggers, Championships, & more
April 02, 2013 06:51PM
It is a rule which makes taking cash a BIG decision !!!! Better make sure it is worth your while.... at an average of $50 entry fees, it could cost you $200 to move back down!! Ouch, and getting beat down four times in a row as well !! Seems counter productive!!! Shouldn't be locked in to Open until you have cashed twice! Open division is a tough gig....
Re: Divisions, Baggers, Championships, & more
April 03, 2013 04:17PM
That's exactly why you have a "log jam" of talented players still playing in advanced. An even bigger log jam in intermediate as everyone is chased out of novice if they've played more than a tournament or two (which I agree with). There's nothing forcing them to move out of Int or Adv. I've personally heard a player talking last year at the Am championship that they weren't ever moving up to advanced cause they couldn't beat "whoever" so they're just going to play intermediate ... REALLY, INT for lyfe I guess LOL.


SN HAS to, well should, do something for the true INT and Adv players as those divisions have stagnated. Relying on "local levels" to regulate divisions doesn't keep folks from coming to my/or any other town and dropping a division or two, something I know happens. It's funny to look at some of these players stats for the year and see they've played in almost every division from Pro to Int. or from Adv to Rec.

Several folks have offered "ratings for fee" and I know someone was doing them for free until recently. MOST tourneys I've played in have been $25-$37 entry fee; if that was $26-$38 it absolutely would not stop me from doing any of the tournaments that I've played in this year. Saying it will affect attendance is someone that doesn't want it to happen using that as a crutch. .50 cents or a dollar isn't going to keep anyone from coming to a tournament. I do know I haven't gone to a tournament because I just didn't have it whether it was gas $$ or hotel or entry or a combination but it never came down to a $ or two making or breaking whether I could make the tournament.

I would think folks would be more apt to move up or change division if they knew the folks in that division were all going to be in a certain rating range and they could be competitive. There has to be a cap for the Advanced (and lower) field(s) (ratings protected) or there's no incentive whatsoever for a great advanced player to move up and be an average or worse Pro/open player and up his game. Every tournament I've been to the top finishers in Advanced has been playing in advanced for quite a while (most longer than I've been playing disc golf period). I've never played more than one season in a division and haven't jumped from higher divisions to lower either. Next season might be the first time I stay in the same division as I'm pretty sure I'm not ready for the Pro side of the tournament scene yet. Without ratings and playing different tees it's hard to tell.

Just my .02 cents. Of course I was called a 6th place bagger by someone on here recently too so who knows.
Re: Divisions, Baggers, Championships, & more
April 03, 2013 04:59PM
Log jam in Adv? Lmao. Adv is just that, players with advanced skills not ready, OR NOT WANTING to play professional. Nobody should ever be forced to move from a casual Am division into a professional division. Most Int players have Adv skills and therefor should be playing where the skill name says,, adv.

Terry Zeringue
Re: Divisions, Baggers, Championships, & more
April 03, 2013 06:27PM
Not wanting shouldn't be an option. If you're rated ... You play in your rated division. The " I'm just not feeling it" crap has to stop. LMAO :/
Anonymous User
Re: Divisions, Baggers, Championships, & more
April 03, 2013 08:37PM
That was a great post Joe Kool...and sorry for calling you a 6th place bagger :) :) but you did beat 20 other baggers at that tournament LOL
Re: Divisions, Baggers, Championships, & more
April 04, 2013 10:16PM
bump
Re: Divisions, Baggers, Championships, & more
April 05, 2013 02:31PM
Bluff Magee Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> That was a great post Joe Kool...and sorry for
> calling you a 6th place bagger :) :) but you did
> beat 20 other baggers at that tournament LOL


No worries ... I took it with a grain of salt. I've been ... frustrated with the divisional play in SN and the stagnation that all the "good ole boys" seem to be just fine with. I see the frustration in just about every newcomers eyes that try to travel and play tournaments. Seeing someone (sometimes 2 or 3 top peeps) in Novice destroy the field but 10+ strokes consistently just drives them away. Same thing in INT and in ADV...


Contrary to some thoughts ... I don't think you should be able to just choose to stay in a division even if you are destroying the competition or winning most of your tournaments. there should be a skill limiting factor of some sort for the lower divisions and if you're better than "X" then get what ... you don't get to play, you step up and play with the big boys.


Yeah I threw "OK" at the PoG, nothing like the top 3 or 4 people did though. I don't think I could have caught the leader on my best day ;) I've gotten lucky at a couple tourneys and had some tourneys where the normal top dogs didn't show or couldn't make it. For my first year in an advanced division I've done well. If my Ratings said I should be in the Pro Masters ... that's where I'd play, but alas I digress...



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 04/05/2013 02:32PM by Joe_Kool.
Re: Divisions, Baggers, Championships, & more
April 05, 2013 11:13PM
What should your rating be to be forced to play Pro Masters?
Re: Divisions, Baggers, Championships, & more
April 06, 2013 11:01AM
dmzich Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> What should your rating be to be forced to play
> Pro Masters?


Master MPM 40+ during calendar year 935+
Anonymous User
Re: Divisions, Baggers, Championships, & more
April 07, 2013 09:48AM
Joe_Kool Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------

> Contrary to some thoughts ... I don't think you
> should be able to just choose to stay in a
> division even if you are destroying the
> competition or winning most of your tournaments.
> there should be a skill limiting factor of some
> sort for the lower divisions and if you're better
> than "X" then get what ... you don't get to play,
> you step up and play with the big boys.
>
>


You know what Joe, this is a good idea. If a rule forcing people to move up were enacted, it would only affect a minuscule percentage of players, possibly as few as a handful here in the SN. Ratings demonstrate that it's just a couple people playing in divisions that they are too skilled for, so the rule would only apply to the worst offending baggers and therefore wouldn't be very controversial at all. The SN would then have a numerically based way to say that it stands for fair competition in its amateur divisions, and whiners that say they can't win because of baggers would be told that based on the data, their whining has no merit, so please, whiners, get off the internet and go practice.

I will say this...Intermediate Am players in their first season in the SN should not be forced to move up. Let them live the experience of competing for the Southern Int. Amateur Championship. Like in the freakly rare case of Cameron Colglazier. He deserved to have a chance to win an amateur title before moving to pro. Tiger Woods won the US Amateur Championship of ball golf 3 years in a row in fact!
Re: Divisions, Baggers, Championships, & more
April 07, 2013 10:52AM
At the same time, would a local gym not let a bball player play in it's league if they think he should be playing in the nba? That's the difference between Amateur and Professional.

The Pdga Am championship doesn't offer INT AM, just ADV AM (I think, just the last time i checked).

Terry Zeringue
Re: Divisions, Baggers, Championships, & more
April 14, 2013 02:08PM
I agree 100% that divisions need to be based on ratings. I feel confident it would force many players to move up a division.

Zinger, your basketball comparison holds no weight. Apples to Oranges man. Local leagues allow pro-level golfers to play in weekly events, so I don't see where you thought that was going....

I know I get frustrated seeing the same names at the top of the AM leaderboards.....and I know good golfers who enjoy tournaments, but will not play SN tourneys b/c of baggers, but they will travel for PDGA tourneys.


While I'm on the subject, what's the problem with PDGA tourneys in the south?
I've only been playing a couple of years, so don't flame my question too hard.....what's the need for two national leagues?
L W
Re: Divisions, Baggers, Championships, & more
April 15, 2013 09:54AM
2 leagues? Rules, it's all about the rules.
Re: Divisions, Baggers, Championships, & more
April 16, 2013 07:29AM
Majority of SN rules are based on PDGA rules and we just recently got an accurate rule book that is available for everyone to see. It has nothing to do with the rules. Majority of the people host SN tournaments because it is cheaper and isn't a process to host an event. If there are some major rule differences, I would like to know them.

L W Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> 2 leagues? Rules, it's all about the rules.
Re: Divisions, Baggers, Championships, & more
April 22, 2013 10:54AM
L W Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> 2 leagues? Rules, it's all about the rules.


What are the rule differences?
Re: Divisions, Baggers, Championships, & more
April 22, 2013 11:04AM
Rules of play are the same.... rules on divisions and membership are different. SN is a southern US base affiliation while the PDGA is international .. they both support disc golf and that is the most important thing they do!!!
Re: Divisions, Baggers, Championships, & more
April 23, 2013 08:45PM
I would also like to know what the deal is with the lack of PDGA events here in the South. I don't really understand why I have to travel to be able to play under that structure.

As far as keeping the baggers down, I think the introduction of a ratings based system is the only way to go. As someone else stated, the extra dollar or two wont stop me from wanting to play a tourney. But the lack of structure in the SN will.
Re: Divisions, Baggers, Championships, & more
April 23, 2013 10:18PM
Good question.... as SNs grew it pushed the PDGA out of certain areas... kind of a disc golf succession.. like the civil war. Mobile was PDGA big time, but no more.. that is just the way it is,although it would be nice to find some happy median, but it does not seem likely. Baggers are best handled on a local level, but there are some players that are am for life- that is just how it is.PS There is still plenty of bagging in PDGA land !!! LOL It is not just an SN problem.
Re: Divisions, Baggers, Championships, & more
April 24, 2013 05:19PM
I have been playing in tournaments for four+ years now and have avoided playing in PDGA tournaments because of the added cost. I don't want to have to pay $50 a year for a membership to be able to play in tournaments or $10 per event to play as a non-member. I usually play in 5-8 tournaments a year, so it isn't worth the money for me. I am already paying $40 a year to play in two different bag-tag leagues in Memphis. I think there are several other people who feel this way, so PDGA tournaments have not thrived in the South.
In Memphis, however, a group of guys from the local club Circle 3 have made a big push to host PDGA tournaments since the Copperhills Classic in September. Many people bought memberships in September that are good until Jan. 2014 at a discount price. I think there have been 3 PDGA tournaments in Memphis since then, and more are planned for this year. They recently hosted a tournment April 20-21 at Bud Hill and Valentine Park with 69 players present, including 32 non-PDGA members playing. They are also hosting PDGA leagues this year for the first time so players can establish ratings. One league is at Orgill right now, and another one will be at Johnson Rd. Park later this summer. Only time will tell if these new members will renew their memberships next year at full price, or if they will revert back to SN-only tournaments.
Re: Divisions, Baggers, Championships, & more
April 25, 2013 03:57PM
dmzich Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I have been playing in tournaments for four+ years
> now and have avoided playing in PDGA tournaments
> because of the added cost. I don't want to have
> to pay $50 a year for a membership to be able to
> play in tournaments or $10 per event to play as a
> non-member. I usually play in 5-8 tournaments a
> year, so it isn't worth the money for me. I am
> already paying $40 a year to play in two different
> bag-tag leagues in Memphis. I think there are
> several other people who feel this way, so PDGA
> tournaments have not thrived in the South.


Agree 100% I
Re: Divisions, Baggers, Championships, & more
April 25, 2013 04:27PM
The reason the PDGA hasn't "Thrived" in the south, is because all you have seen in the past is SN... If all 8 of your events were pdga events, I am sure you wouldn't think twice about buying a membership. The $10 extra at sign up does suck, but that makes it easier for the players to get a membership because they don't want to pay it. The memberships allow them to have a paid staff. You are talking 14 cents a day or $5 a month for a membership. And you get stuff for signing up, so its not so bad.
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