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Southern Nationals Insurance?

Posted by Trackin01 
Re: Southern Nationals Insurance?
May 09, 2014 06:08PM
cox3 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Bluff Magee Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > Jazzcaster you can't honestly expect this BoD
> to
> > do anything but say it can't be done.
> >
> >
> > Website? "Can't be done."
> >
> > Fixing player points (like 3 different
> spellings
> > of Darryl Daugherty)? "fixing name stuff is
> > DUMB.... and impossible."---direct quote from
> > Casey (cox3)
> >
> > Do anything about 3-month old delinquent TD
> fees?
> > "I expect this payment soon"---direct quote
> from
> > Casey (cox3)
>
> Mike, why do you feel like you are being helpful
> when you reply to a thread and say nothing about
> the topic of the thread? Say something
> insightful.
>
> As for manually editing the results for 100+
> tournaments being the way we look to ensure that
> all points are correctly consolidated, if you
> don't think that is dumb then we have different
> ideas of proper efficiency. And yes, it is
> impossible. I don't even know how the majority of
> our players spell their names much less how to
> correct them. I have spent over 20 hours on that
> topic in the past week and have only corrected the
> top few in each division plus those who requested
> it. I have already spent more time than an unpaid
> volunteer should be expected to spend on a topic
> such as that. If you would have quoted my entire
> statement, you would see that I said that player
> id's is the only way to create the proper
> efficiency and cut out this unnecessary overload
> of manual work.
>
> Of course, I don't even know why I responded to
> that comment on this thread since it is unrelated.
> I have no problem with your comments but could you
> please at least make them in the appropriate
> places so that threads do not become cluttered
> with off topic chatter? If you had a problem with
> those statements that I made, it would have been
> more useful to reply on the threads in which they
> were made. Thank you very much for your
> cooperation.


Sorry Casey I didn't realize all my comments were required to be helpful. Could you provide me with your unpublished rules for my postings, so that I may learn how not to break the rules you guys invent for me?

Am I about to be banned again for "past violations" that you will neither explain nor describe?
Re: Southern Nationals Insurance?
May 09, 2014 06:57PM
Bluff Magee Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Sorry Casey I didn't realize all my comments were
> required to be helpful. Could you provide me with
> your unpublished rules for my postings, so that I
> may learn how not to break the rules you guys
> invent for me?
>
> Am I about to be banned again for "past
> violations" that you will neither explain nor
> describe?

It's not about a set of rules. What is the point of going to a particular forum and making posts that offer nothing to the discussion that is transpiring? In my opinion, constructive posts are ones that ask questions, give answers, provide positive reinforcement, provide constructive criticism, etc. You're an intelligent person. You have a lot of knowledge regarding the sport and other things. The SN would benefit from your positive contribution. If that is not something that you are interested in providing then we are fine with you offering nothing as well. I just hate to see people forming opinions of you based off of what they see from many of your posts on this site. Normally those types of incessant, negative posts are reserved for individuals with a lot less intelligence who have done a lot less for the sport than you.

I understand that you are still hurt over the action of the previous administration to ban you from the forum. Since I was not on the board at that time, I can neither explain, describe, apologize, nor comment on that episode. I was under the impression that it had already been discussed in detail. If you are still looking for further explanation, perhaps you can attempt to contact someone who played a role in your banishment and subsequent reinstatement.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Casey Cox
"If you aint first, you're last." -- Ricky Bobby's daddy

2007-2008 SN Amateur Player of the Year
SN advanced single season points record holder - 466 (2007-2008)
SN advanced single season wins record holder - 16 (2007-2008)
SN advanced single season score record holder - 53.40 (2007-2008)
Re: Southern Nationals Insurance?
May 09, 2014 10:39PM
I've got to admit Casey, I enjoy your short fictional stories like the post above. It is so unusual to see an SN BoD member capable of writing even a full sentence, or forming a coherent thought; but you spin descriptive whimsical tales that almost make it look like you're doing something to improve the series as you claimed you would. It appears you can even do enough second-grade math to serve as the treasurer. In short, you're a homo sapiens in a world of neanderthals.

I'm far from hurt as your clever fable describes. Instead I'm amused that your minor-league series still refuses to even attempt to improve. If you find my posts "incessant and negative", your imagination really is running wild...so please, channel that imagination into another chapter of Casey's Disc Golf Fables...this website needs some fresh material, since y'all have run so many people off. Maybe they'll come back to laugh at the way you do nothing but write so well about it.
Re: Southern Nationals Insurance?
May 10, 2014 07:18AM
Good job Casey. Your hard work and dedication to SN Golf is greatly appreciated by many.
Re: Southern Nationals Insurance?
May 28, 2014 12:40PM
Last week, at Casey's request, I obtained a quote for insurance coverage for all SN sanctioned events. The quote was for a General Liability policy with $1,000,000/$2,000,000 liability limits. The total premium for one year is $1,549.65. Unlike some other types of GL insurance, this policy does require an additional payment for each "Additional Insured." That additional amount is $105.00 for each Additional Insured.

Unfortunately, the cost of this policy cannot be broken down into a simply per-tournament cost. For the premium of $1,549.65, the SN and the TDs would be covered for all sanctioned events during the policy period (subject to the terms and conditions of the policy of course). In order to get coverage for the park/course, the additional amount of $105.00 will have to be paid. However, this is NOT a per-tournament cost. This is a one-time (per one-year policy period) cost of getting coverage for the park owner for the policy period.

An example of how this would work in the case of Ft. Buhlow is that before the first tournament of a new policy period, the Red River Waterway Commission ("owner" of Ft. Buhlow DGC) would be added as an Additional Insured. RRWC would then be covered for all the remaining tournaments held there during the following year. The per-tournament cost would simply depend on how many tournaments were held at the RRWC course(s). To get coverage during the policy period, a TD would merely need to sanction with SN.

The amount is not even course specific. If, for example, the City of Lafayette, City of North Little Rock or City of Mobile were added as an additional insured, all of their parks would be covered for all SN sanctioned events for the following year. In cases where a State Park Dept. was made an additional insured, they would be covered for all their parks throughout the state for all the SN sanctioned tournaments at those parks for the remaining year, all for one payment of $105.00 to add them as an additional insured.

I have also asked for a quote from the agency that sold the insurance policy to the PDGA but have not heard back in over a week.
Re: Southern Nationals Insurance?
May 29, 2014 12:26PM
I think cities and clubs that require proof of insurance for their tournaments could easily afford $105 per year. Likewise, I think the series can certainly swing the $1,550 annual premium. Good job, Eric.
Re: Southern Nationals Insurance?
May 29, 2014 04:20PM
Quote
Jacques
I think cities and clubs that require proof of insurance for their tournaments could easily afford $105 per year.

Not to put too find a point on it, but "proof of insurance" is included in the $1,550 annual premium. Certificates of insurance won't cost anything. So if your park only requires that you have insurance, there will be no additional cost. If the park want's coverage for itself, then that is what the $105 is for.

Also,Casey asked me to add some additional information.

When I obtained the quote for the liability insurance, the insurance agency also offered an accident policy. I didn't ask for such a quote, but those types of policies typically go together with liability insurance because the accident coverage fills in the obvious gap in the liability insurance: injuries to participants.

The following is the offer:

"We can offer you an Accident Policy that will pay up to $10,000 Medical Expense (Excess Coverage) with a $0 deductible for $230.75. The policy term is six months. This quote is with Nationwide and covers 65 people for as many events as you have during the 6 month period."

The only problem with this policy is the limitation of 65 people. I don't think that raising the number covered would be an issue but it would almost certainly cost a little more. This policy would only pay after any other health insurance paid their limits. I think that it would cover deductibles and co-pays, but I don't have much experience with health and accident policies so I cannot say for sure.
Re: Southern Nationals Insurance?
May 29, 2014 04:26PM
In my opinion, it will take an increase in the per player fee in order to pay for an insurance policy. And if we increase the per player fee, I think we should just go to next whole number which is $3. In addition to providing insurance, I think we could do some other positive things for the organization with the extra money such as support our championships better. I'm not going to go into specific breakdown of revenue here because this thread is specifically for the topic of insurance, I am just pointing out that I believe that increase will be necessary if insurance is desired and that extra money would go farther than just insurance.

I plan on contacting all of the clubs and TDs that are a significant part of the SN series to gauge their opinions on this subject as this is a major decision for the series. By my count, that is about 20 entities that have a very vested interest. We will not arrive at a decision regarding this topic until due diligence is done. Even though I am most interested in the opinions of those that run the majority of the tournaments in our series, the more opinions of individual players that we can gather on this thread, the better.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Casey Cox
"If you aint first, you're last." -- Ricky Bobby's daddy

2007-2008 SN Amateur Player of the Year
SN advanced single season points record holder - 466 (2007-2008)
SN advanced single season wins record holder - 16 (2007-2008)
SN advanced single season score record holder - 53.40 (2007-2008)
Re: Southern Nationals Insurance?
May 30, 2014 04:58AM
Raising the SN fee to $3 is ridiculous. If the insurance is only going to cost $1550 a year, it can easily be paid for with the current $2 fee structure. Either take it from the 25 cents of each $2 that is now allocated to the BoD, or take it from the general fund. You could take it on the same ratio that exists now, or do the wise thing and deduct it all from the overpayment made every year to the SNAC, where thousands are overpaid/squandered each year to run an amateur event.

You changed the SN calendar year for the better...why not change the SN fee formula for the better now? Looks like a great opportunity to improve the entire SN at a small cost to the SNAC.
Re: Southern Nationals Insurance?
May 30, 2014 08:02AM
Bluff Magee Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Raising the SN fee to $3 is ridiculous. If the
> insurance is only going to cost $1550 a year, it
> can easily be paid for with the current $2 fee
> structure. Either take it from the 25 cents of
> each $2 that is now allocated to the BoD, or take
> it from the general fund. You could take it on the
> same ratio that exists now, or do the wise thing
> and deduct it all from the overpayment made every
> year to the SNAC, where thousands are
> overpaid/squandered each year to run an amateur
> event.
>
> You changed the SN calendar year for the
> better...why not change the SN fee formula for the
> better now? Looks like a great opportunity to
> improve the entire SN at a small cost to the SNAC.

I don't agree. The 25 cents per player that currently goes towards expenses only accounts for less than $1,000 per year. That is already less than an annual premium would cost. Not to mention the fact that, by the end of the year, we will have a regular website fee that will be incurred as well as the existing expenses that the board and series incurs throughout the year. There is no way that these amount of expenses could be covered under the existing model of $0.25 per player.

It is true that we currently have a relatively large surplus of money in the SN account but it is my understanding that we will likely face charges approaching $1,000 in initial costs in building a new website. We would most likely be able to cover the creation of a new website and still pay the first time payment on an insurance policy but it is not a model that will allow for payments into the future.

Taking money from the SNAC is a real option. We definitely send too much money there each year. I think that any TD who has ran a SNAC will agree to that. However, for one, this probably won't come into play until 2016 at this point because of the reduced pay period for the 2014 and 2015 championships. So that will likely not be a potential source of extra revenue for quite a while. Furthermore, I would like to see a re-structuring of this system to benefit the SNPC and SNDC which are events that struggle financially rather than use the surplus of money on expenses.

We could always just start taking $0.50+ out of the existing $2 per player and send less money to the championships in general but, in my opinion, this would be a step backwards for the series.

In the end, if we want to improve the series, it is going to cost extra money. Nothing improves without providing resources to that area. I don't personally think that a $1 per player increase is very significant, especially considering it would enable insurance to be provided for all of our events. Nothing is free. It is like someone who just drives without insurance because they can't afford $100 a month or whatever. We shouldn't expect additional benefits as a series if we aren't willing to pay for additional benefits. That is my opinion. $3 per player (with less than $1 going towards expenses) is WAY less than the PDGA brings in to go towards expenses. If we want to compare ourselves to the PDGA every time there is a chance and talk about the benefits that the PDGA offers and the SN does not then we have to face the reality that the PDGA is obtaining money in 6 figures just for these purposes. Maybe this is not an option that the SN wants as a whole. If not, that is fine too. Like I said, we will certainly do our due diligence before reaching a decision on the matter.

Please continue to offer your opinions.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Casey Cox
"If you aint first, you're last." -- Ricky Bobby's daddy

2007-2008 SN Amateur Player of the Year
SN advanced single season points record holder - 466 (2007-2008)
SN advanced single season wins record holder - 16 (2007-2008)
SN advanced single season score record holder - 53.40 (2007-2008)
Re: Southern Nationals Insurance?
May 30, 2014 01:25PM
Yeah you could raise the fees to $3 instead of doing the wise and sensible thing of sending less to the SNAC. We really can't expect wise and sensible from the SN after all.

Raising your fee to $3 will make it easier for TDs to choose to sanction with new regional series that will only charge $2 or $1. Or the PDGA which is only $2 per player for a c-tier + 50 bucks. You do realize that if more TDs leave it shrinks the SN?
Re: Southern Nationals Insurance?
May 30, 2014 05:35PM
The real question should be how many TDs don't sanction with the SN because of insurance? I'm going to guess that answer is none.

So in which way will blowing all this money actually improve the SN?
Re: Southern Nationals Insurance?
May 30, 2014 11:36PM
My personal hypothesis is that I tend to agree with Dillon. I'm not sure how many locations actually care if insurance is offered or not. It doesn't seem to be very many. I'm not sure if our number of tournaments would be affected very much, if it all, based on whether insurance is provided. We might lose more tournaments trying to pay for insurance. Like I said, I will be gathering data from all points of the SN over the next month or two to see what the consensus is on the topic and we can move from there.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Casey Cox
"If you aint first, you're last." -- Ricky Bobby's daddy

2007-2008 SN Amateur Player of the Year
SN advanced single season points record holder - 466 (2007-2008)
SN advanced single season wins record holder - 16 (2007-2008)
SN advanced single season score record holder - 53.40 (2007-2008)
Re: Southern Nationals Insurance?
May 31, 2014 09:43AM
It's not a matter of who will not sanction w/ SN, but who will be sued by that one time when there is a problem. Covered is better than naked! A VERY Good Waiver placing the TD, SN, and the Parks OUT of Blames Way will help!!! Nothing is foolproof, But a well placed attempt will go a LONG way plus Insurance would be the Blanket.
Re: Southern Nationals Insurance?
May 31, 2014 09:47AM
Jack C. Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> It's not a matter of who will not sanction w/ SN,
> but who will be sued by that one time when there
> is a problem. Covered is better than naked! A VERY
> Good Waiver placing the TD, SN, and the Parks OUT
> of Blames Way will help!!! Nothing is foolproof,
> But a well placed attempt will go a LONG way plus
> Insurance would be the Blanket.

Jack, if you are in favor of insurance, would you be in favor of charging $3 per player in fees in order to offset that cost or would you prefer just take more money out of the current $2 per player structure and leave less going towards the championships?

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Casey Cox
"If you aint first, you're last." -- Ricky Bobby's daddy

2007-2008 SN Amateur Player of the Year
SN advanced single season points record holder - 466 (2007-2008)
SN advanced single season wins record holder - 16 (2007-2008)
SN advanced single season score record holder - 53.40 (2007-2008)
Re: Southern Nationals Insurance?
June 02, 2014 10:01PM
Jack C. Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> It's not a matter of who will not sanction w/ SN,
> but who will be sued by that one time when there
> is a problem. Covered is better than naked! A VERY
> Good Waiver placing the TD, SN, and the Parks OUT
> of Blames Way will help!!! Nothing is foolproof,
> But a well placed attempt will go a LONG way plus
> Insurance would be the Blanket.

Jack, waivers are pretty much useless. In Louisiana, they are worse than useless. AND the people most likely to sue a TD or park aren't going to sign a waiver anyway (i.e., spectators, bystanders, dogwalkers, etc.). Insurance is the only protection for the TD and the course owner aside from the low probability of anyone getting injured in any single tournament (which explains the low cost of insurance).

On a side note, I remain amazed at the niggardly attitude of many disc golfers when it comes to entry fees. Given that attitude, I acknowledge that there might be tournaments where there is a legitimate worry that attendance will decline if the players are charged a dollar more. Still, it's hard for me to imagine that being significant. And why does it have to be an even dollar anyway? How about 50
Re: Southern Nationals Insurance?
June 02, 2014 11:29PM
The thoughts of a very tiny blip on the TD scale.

Say there are 100 players and insurance cost $250 (for my area)

Currently that is $450 out of payout. $200 to SN and $250 to insurance

With $3 SN fees. 100 players and $105 for insurance
That is $405 out of payout. $300 to SN and $105 for insurance

So We have saved $45 for the first event. Plus we would not need to pay the $105 for each addition tournament if I read that right above. With Biloxi's 4-7 events per year. We would be able to pay out a whole lot more money in the long run.
Re: Southern Nationals Insurance?
June 03, 2014 06:34AM
Wow Jazzcaster, no need to go all L.A. Clippers owner style on us like that.
Re: Southern Nationals Insurance?
June 03, 2014 07:58AM
Niggardly = Stingy, miserly, unwilling to part with even a small amount of money, etc. It's unrelated to the Clippers owner's issues.

Eric, as long as subsequent tournaments are held at parks owned by the same entity that gets added to the insurance, they will be covered for the year. Every new park owner that wants coverage will require another $105. If all they want is proof of your insurance, there will be no cost other than the premium.
Dex
Re: Southern Nationals Insurance?
June 03, 2014 09:51AM
In Baton Rouge we pay a park fee that includes insurance, which is $2.00 a player. So we would not like to incur another $1.00 for something we already have.

I understand that each city can have differant stuations


Thanks

Dex
Re: Southern Nationals Insurance?
June 04, 2014 12:54PM
[en.m.wikipedia.org]
For those that don't have that high of a vocabulary
: )

Central Louisiana Disc Golf Association President
Ryan Niccolini PDGA#55907



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 06/04/2014 12:55PM by niklpenny.
Re: Southern Nationals Insurance?
July 29, 2014 03:08PM
Very good discussion on a topic that I have asked on multiple ocasions here. This is an issue that plagues us here in Jacksonville with events at the City run parks. We have to provide insurance with 2 additional entities named as additional insured (in the cse of Fore Palms DGC). This has definitley been prohibitive of running SN events here. If reasonable access to insurance could be provided, I would definitley be interested and would be helpful in getting more SN tourneys in East FL. By reasonable, I would put a number of $150 max per tourney.

Joey Van Duzee
Re: Southern Nationals Insurance?
July 29, 2014 06:18PM
Thanks for your input, Joey!

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Casey Cox
"If you aint first, you're last." -- Ricky Bobby's daddy

2007-2008 SN Amateur Player of the Year
SN advanced single season points record holder - 466 (2007-2008)
SN advanced single season wins record holder - 16 (2007-2008)
SN advanced single season score record holder - 53.40 (2007-2008)
Re: Southern Nationals Insurance?
July 29, 2014 07:43PM
Got to love a Joey Van Duzee sighting!!!!

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Keith "Sunshine" B.
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