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Posted by Dirtyoljim 
July 14, 2014 11:41AM
I really appreciate everything every TD does to grow this series. Thank you everyone involved!!

I will try to be short and sweet here. This series is turning into more bickering and BS than enjoyable golf....and that's extremely sad to me. SN has been my home for DG for a very long time and as the years progress I see less and less SN tourny's on the schedule in my area...why you ask?

Because the SN cannot change!!

The only way to grow something from what it was into something great is an easy answer...CHANGE. So before you get on here and blast the BOD or any TD for that matter please ask yourself a few questions.

Do I want the SN to stay the same or grow? Your answer should be to grow. If your answer is stay the same as it always has been then the SN will always be this bickering and constant "I told you so", "That's not how we have always done it", "Listen to me because your wrong" mentality.

Change people......please change....or this will all be for nothing.
That is all, say what you like or read this and laugh at it....I just had to say that
James Lecy
Re: Change
July 14, 2014 12:53PM
Change is a force of nature. It is guaranteed. The choice is direction.
Re: Change
July 14, 2014 01:24PM
I find it very difficult to see where the SN has changed or evolved from where it was 10-15 years ago when I started. The only change I see is a BOD seat here and there, and less SN sanctioning in my area. It's sad but I am almost to the point that I don't care about it anymore. I would rather pay my $100 or whatever it is to be a PDGA member and deal with less drama. Sad but true sometimes....
Re: Change
July 14, 2014 02:20PM
Changes include this website, written rules and a democratically elected governing body.
Re: Change
July 15, 2014 03:54PM
Reading the thread about this years SNPC where ppl are talking about "attorneys", USDGC Spots, "what TD's used to do", etc.....kinda puts a bad taste in people's mouth.
James you know I hear it plenty of times from our older guys in our area complaining about how I don't do things like "we" used to do. This biggest complaint was changing Arkansas States to PDGA.
What have I personally seen? People hate change and some hate it more than others! Ask Mr. Preston Cowan!

What would be more attractive for SN?
Insurance provided
Post results by the tournament directors
Online scoring
Articles with pictures about SN events so people can read and get excited about the SN community
Better tracking of names so a BOD doesn't spend all day fixing points and name corrections which means this website needs a better database program
Better incentive for earning points (end of year rewards)
Better way to VOTE for Player of the year awards instead of asking the very small group of people who visit this site!

I've posted this stuff years ago before and we can see how those ideas were change

Just my two cents
Re: Change
July 15, 2014 05:06PM
There have been many changes since I first discovered the SN. Maybe the changes have not been or have not been all of the "changes we can believe in" (direction), but there have been changes. We should debate what should be changed and how and what should not be changed. It only takes 4 people to change everything in this series, but those 4 could end up the only 4.
Re: Change
July 15, 2014 08:51PM
Re: Change
July 16, 2014 12:36PM
There is a lot that can be done. We have had some stagnant periods. I actually think the series is on an upswing right now due to some stellar individual efforts but we're early into it. Here's some change for you:

Re: Change
July 16, 2014 03:22PM
I am a SN series player and have been for years. I try hard to promote the series in my area. I try to get players to travel to SN land (which for the most part is MS, LA, TN, AL, and LA now) and they have no interest due to the fact that there is no benefit for them to be involved in the SN. The players in mine and Doug's area are more interested in what the PDGA has to offer. I used to be COMPLETELY against the PDGA due to the cost associated with playing in that league.....but after looking at what they bring to the table and what the SN doesn't....well....I changed.

Now I am looking at becoming a current PDGA player and playing more of their events. We can't even run a SN event here anymore because the events in this region require the insurance necessary....PDGA has that to offer ...SN does not...a rating system that makes sense to all ....the SN does available to the TD's that benefits all players and visitors in communication...SN does not.... It's just sad to see where this is going....I would love for the SN to change but I don't think the old timers will allow it...they seem stuck on what used to be instead of what could be. It's hard to change a mentality that wont hear it or accept said change.

Re: Change
July 16, 2014 03:43PM
I agree that the hay days of the SN appear to be behind us. It seems that the SN has lost a lot of the "family and friends" atmosphere that made it so successful originally. At one point it was considered a competitor (or opposer) to the PDGA, but now it's like the Busch Series, or the tour, its' always second to the PDGA. A glaring example is how much of a fuss people are making over these USDGA qualifying spots for the SN. They're not going to play in the SN Championships because of it, like they're being denied this once in a lifetime opportunity to play on the "real" tour.

Frankly, I'd like to see Memphis move towards PDGA. 75% (maybe more) of the SN tourneys are in MS, LA, and AL anyway.
Re: Change
July 16, 2014 08:00PM
You hit the nail on the head ThomasD. Try to make a change in SN and the few players affected seem to raise a ruckus.
Re: Change
July 16, 2014 10:07PM
I had a conversation with Robby Harris at the SNDC in Pensacola during a rain delay on Saturday afternoon. We spoke for a while about the SN series and we seemed to be in pretty close agreement on a few points...

1. The SN is our series. It belongs to the players and its downfall or its prosperity rests squarely with us. If it falters, it is only because we allow it to.

Many of the people who would be dynamite to have involved in carrying the series forward are already giving huge amounts of their time to their local clubs. Considering that having strong leadership in the clubs that comprise the SN can be a great strength, getting those people involved at the larger, regional level becomes difficult - not impossible, though.

This brings us to the next point.

2. The leadership structure of the SN desperately needs an overhaul. Not talking about those currently serving as board members, more in terms of how the framework is set up.

A board of directors is needed for consultation on "big picture" issues but remains hopelessly inadequate for day-to-day functions.

The SN needs clearly defined elected offices with clearly defined responsibilities. Those offices and those responsibilities need to fit what the core competencies of the series should be. They should be elected by the entire series in the same way the current BOD is.

These offices would be best suited to people who aren't currently involved in running their local club in any official capacity since these would be the biggest burden, time wise.

3. The SN still needs a board of directors for the reason stated above. Our discussion boiled down to an idea of a board comprised of representatives elected from each of the SN's constituent cities with a few at-large spots for outlying areas. This way every city (or area) has a voice in the SN, a person who they elect, a person that they know and a person who is close at hand to field their questions and criticisms.

The people who are already heavily involved at the local level would be logical candidates for this as they clearly understand their local scene.

Many already serve as TDs so they know how tournaments work - after all this is a TOURNAMENT SERIES.

A board with this structure wouldn't make nearly as great of a demand on these people's time so their commitment to their local clubs doesn't have to suffer. At the same time, the SN as a whole would have the opportunity to benefit from their insight and abilities.

These are my general, random thoughts.

- Being a "good guy" or a "nice guy" or a good golfer doesn't make you qualified to hold a position of leadership in the SN. The series needs people with organizational skills who see tasks through to completion. An elected position with the SN shouldn't be the first major responsibility in one's life.

- I think everybody agrees that a revamped website would help the series grow. I still believe that the path of least resistance to that goal is to partner with someone that already has a lot of the stuff we want up and running. Doing so greatly reduces up front development costs as well as relieves some of what has become our burden of site administration & janitorial duties.

- There is another thread in which the topic of insurance was being discussed. Much of the leg work had been done already and the result was that a policy similar to what the PDGA offers is in our price range. Even though I TD tournaments in a city that covers our events under their policy, I fully support the initiative to buy insurance for the series and offer it to the locations that need it.

- There are some other non-PDGA affiliated points series held throughout the country. Some seem pretty well organized. I would like to see if any opportunity exists to partner with one (or several) of them on issues like websites & insurance if it turns out to be more than we can handle on our own.

I don't know if John Kitrell looks at this site anymore but I would like to hear what his thoughts are on how to ensure a bright future for the SN.
Re: Change
July 17, 2014 09:44AM
Why is it better for the "day-to-day function" officers to be "elected by the entire series" rather than appointed / elected / replaceable-at-will by the vote of the BOD, especially given your assertion (which I agree with) that "Being a "good guy" or a "nice guy" or a good golfer doesn't make you qualified to hold a position of leadership in the SN"?

In other words, I am asserting that our series wide elections (and nearly every other popular election I can think of) naturally go to the good guy, the nice guy or the hero figure (good golfer) rather than administrators with "day-to-day function" "core competency" "organizational skills". Sometimes a person may be all of the above but the point we agree on is "not necessarily".

In recent history our elections mostly go to whoever runs because there are few who want the job. That begs the same question - why have more series-wide elections when there are barely candidates for the six "big picture" BOD slots? If the answer is that the current elected seats are too time intensive then why is it that more elected positions is better than more delegation of those tasks? Do you really want the event results for example to stop being updated until another election can be held because the person we elected to do that had to quit due to a life event?
Re: Change
July 17, 2014 10:44AM

Why is it better for the "day-to-day function" officers to be "elected by the entire series" rather than appointed / elected / replaceable-at-will by the vote of the BOD

It isn't necessarily.

My proposition is that the BOD should not consist of members generally elected by the entire series, rather delegates elected locally to represent the constituent cities and (of course) to serve the common interest of the SN series. My thoughts are that these positions would attract the folks who are already local leaders, allowing them to serve the series without placing much additional burden on their time.

The positions responsible for the day-to-day functions would be entirely separate. Whether these are generally elected positions, BOD voted positions or simply BOD appointed positions is a fair point to discuss. Your example of needing to fill vacant positions in relatively short order is a good one to consider.

If these positions aren't generally elected, then your question


That begs the same question - why have more series-wide elections when there are barely candidates for the six "big picture" BOD slots? If the answer is that the current elected seats are too time intensive then why is it that more elected positions is better

answers itself. We would have fewer series-wide elections and most importantly (in my opinion) people filling specific positions who are responsible for specific tasks.
Re: Change
July 17, 2014 11:14AM
I'm still laughing at Discjazz's proclamation that the SN is on an upswing. It took how many weeks to just get results posted for the last SN championship? And now Memphis is thumbing their nose at the SNPC tradition of allowing all ages to compete for USDGC spots? DiscJazz you have often said the prime directive of the SN are the SN Championships...and now even that is falling apart. I'm not interested at all in running an SN event when the money I send in goes to support "championships" that are ran haphazardly at best.

Jacques, maybe you should have a talk with that fool from Lafayette who is on the BoD about why he childishly removed a volunteer like you speak of who is good with organization and such.
Re: Change
July 17, 2014 03:22PM
What's really funny is how the majority of these people complaining about USDGC spots and Memphis have never even been to Memphis. Now they're bocotting the SN Championships! lol, Something tells me they weren't coming regardless.

Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 07/17/2014 03:27PM by ThomasD.
Re: Change
July 17, 2014 03:29PM
What is the mission or goal of the SN? Has there ever been a mission statement? It seems to me the direction is uncertain because the mission of the series is unknown.

Do you want to be like the PDGA? Do you want to be a stepping stone to the PDGA? Do you want the SN to be a different brand of tournaments?
Re: Change
July 17, 2014 04:16PM
Bluff, there's a difference between an upswing and a highpoint. I believe the 2014 championship hosts were chosen by a prior BOD, not that they really had any choice. I have read no complaints about the SNDC being less than fair challenging competition or the funds being misused. The other events haven't even happened yet and the USDGC spot issue is completely beyond the control of the current BOD. None of this is inconsistent with an upswing and I'm glad we have humor.

ThomasD, I went to the championships in Memphis several years ago and it was great. I've not seen anyone say they were boycotting anything SN, just making individual decisions based on cost / benefit. I prefer public display of reasoning so we can improve on it. Our mission is pretty clear in our rules handbook. It's a tournament series. We collect money all year and pay it back at the big events. The bigger the better (people and money). Fair competition. That's it. It does grow the sport.

Jacques, I comprehend your proposal differently now so I'll think about it.
Re: Change
July 18, 2014 10:39AM
ThomasD Wrote:
> What's really funny is how the majority of these
> people complaining about USDGC spots and Memphis
> have never even been to Memphis. Now they're
> bocotting the SN Championships! lol, Something
> tells me they weren't coming regardless.

You couldn't be any further from the truth here ThomasD.


it MUST be the plastic
Re: Change
July 18, 2014 10:45AM
Thomas I'm gonna have to respectfully call you out on your statement that the majority of the whiners about the USDGC spots have never played Memphis. I think it's quite the opposite, that most if not all have played in Memphis. Who do you refer to when you say they haven't played there?

DiscJazz, I guess one step up out of the gutter is technically an upswing. But if the SN can't get the results of its own championships posted in two weeks how can you say that's good?

Regarding the USDGC spots, at first I really didn't care. But then I got to thinking, it is a long-standing tradition to give the old fogeys a chance, and it's one of the only things left in the SN that make sanctioning & participating in the SN worthwhile. While DiscJazz & Mr. Ray may be technically correct, their attitude of non-cooperation is really the last @#$%& thing the SN needs at this point. The attitude Mr. Ray is displaying shows a lack of respect for the SN and is especially disrespectful to a few of the old farts who really did have something to do with building the SN. If you don't respect the traditions of the SN then really what is the advantage to TDs giving money to the SN? Like Jim said, what do you get? No insurance, no ratings, no direction, no leadership, no respect. Sounds like no value to me.
Re: Change
July 18, 2014 11:51AM
I'm denying any attitude and my cooperation is immaterial.
Re: Change
July 18, 2014 12:57PM
You have an attitude. You're ignoring the SN tradition and taking the attitude that just because the SN hasn't codified the tradition, that the TD can flush down the port-o-john one of the last things holding the SN together.
Re: Change
July 18, 2014 01:48PM
My statement that the USDGC spot treatment in issue is a TD decision is not an attitude. It's a statement of fact/law. It's also interesting that Bluff is the one who cited the law (USDGC rule) to me when this topic came up last year, but now it's just a technicality with attitude.


If the SN had a codification of this tradition it would be irrelevant once the TD's bid has been accepted. To my knowledge no one has ever even proposed that the USDGC spot handling be a litmus test for SNPC bid acceptance. Ask the BOD to vote on specific language to add that as a rule if you think it is justified. Go ahead and include a rule on the PDGA non-membership fee too if you want to.

While the TD can by USDGC rule flush the protected divisions out of the spot race, I have advocated otherwise. My opinion is not based on anything personal and it is not a "sky is falling" tactic. It's not about whether X, Y, Z individuals get a shot at a spot. It's about whether the TD does what's best for the SN. Flushing the protected divisions has not been justified in my opinion. It's not too late. If it don't fit he should admit.

Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 07/18/2014 01:56PM by Discjazz.
Re: Change
July 18, 2014 01:58PM
I truly appreciate the comments from everyone and I can honestly say that I believe that traditions are important to SOME but definitely not ALL. Should those traditions be upheld to the same standard?
Should we start new traditions that could be new and exciting for ALL players?
Maybe those new traditions will bring more people here to SN land......we will never know....because we are too scared to change.
Maybe getting involved in the US Masters or something like that could qualify....just throwing ideas out here.

Re: Change
July 18, 2014 06:28PM
I really don't have a problem with any reasonable change. At the end of this SNPC they should announce
that only the Open Division will be eligible for USDGC from now on, problem solved. I have played a few
tournaments in Memphis including the last SNPC there. Was a good one. Not sure what that has to do
with change,

I do have a problem with "cause I said so". I also enjoy the fact that 97% of the people that comment
on the USDGC spots couldn't be any further removed from the issue. If you've played it, you do what
you can to play it again, including driving 8-11 hours to try to qualify on Monday. You're chatting with
players that have done it.

The Host Hotel was really a huge issue and I'm glad that's cleared up.
I know I feel better about paying the same entry fee to play less than the big boys.
By the way, the big boys will be playing in Ohio that weekend.
Can't complain about the $10 unless I have to pay it into a large pool for others.

Also great that the refund policy is really a keeping-your-money policy since the day
things were opened to all was the day you could no longer get any refund.

The premise is a showcase will promote disc golf.
Has anyone ever walked away from a tournament and said to themselves "that showcase round is what really
made this tournament great". Not sure how it promotes disc golf since the gallery is always disc golfers and
maybe some family. The showcase leaves amateur players saying that they can't compete with that so I'll
stay in the AM division. Players are there 3-5 days and would rather get the awards over with and get on the road
rather than hang out while the big boys keep playing. I think this one is "look at the cool new course I discovered".

The last thing I'll note is that the protected players have earned the right NOT to play rounds with screaming,
bag-kicking boors that blame everything and everyone for a bad round. The TD knows about guys like that.
Re: Change
August 07, 2014 12:47AM
dean told you was is up an you still won't listen....... ha ha ha...... oh well
Re: Change
August 07, 2014 10:46AM
Go drunk buddy, you're home.
Re: Change
August 08, 2014 12:10AM
Here's a perfect example of the extremely petty SN BoD in action...this is the PM I got from the tool monitoring this joke of a forum:

Re: The 13th Annual Lafayette Late Summer Fest - Heymann Park - Sept. 6th, 2014
From: Johnathan Nyce
To: Bluff Magee
08/01/2014 11:27AM
This post doesn't have anything to do with the tournament and is being moved to SN Board Notes. Warning has now been given.

In reply to []

Bluff Magee Wrote:
> What's your husband's name? LoL

7. Tournament Threads are Protected threads-Meaning, the BOD's will monitor all Tournament threads in the Tournament forums. Those thread are to discuss the tournaments and only the tournaments. Any and all attempts to change the subject to something other than the tournament will be considered to be a thread "Hijacking"and will be removed. Examples of this include posting topics in a tournament thread not related to the tournament, any and all personal attacks in a tournament thread, Any attempt to deter player's from attending an event in a tournament thread. Any Attempt to discredit a tournament or tournament director in a tournament thread. Any attempt to deter sponsorship in a tournament thread.

8. Punishments for any violations are as follows!

First offense a "Warning" will be given via a PM to the user that violates Forum rules and guidelines.

Second offense a "30 Day probation will be placed on the user".

Third offense a "60 day suspension from SN forum".

Fourth offense a "90 day suspension from the SN forum".

Fifth offense a "Full calendar year suspension from the SN forum".

Sixth offense a "Banishment from SN forum".
Re: Change
August 08, 2014 12:13AM
So, I make a marriage joke & I get a warning. Bodin makes a marriage joke and they don't do @#$%&.

Jonathan Nyce, you have no class & no brains. You are a stain on not just the SN but all of disc golf...and the SN's so desperate that they keep you on their useless BoD.

Re: Change
August 08, 2014 09:54AM
^^ Butt hurt.

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