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DC
Accepting cash as an amateur
January 24, 2003 05:54PM
I was wondering what the Southern Nationals' policy is on an amateur player who accepts cash in a pro division. Is that player no longer eligible to receive points and prizes in the amateur division? If so, is there a time limit or is that player always considered to be a pro once he accepts cash?

DC
The Zinger
Re: Accepting cash as an amateur
January 24, 2003 07:07PM
As what I understand, if a player cashes and accepts cash, he may no long play in a lower division.
misterbogey
Re: Accepting cash as an amateur
January 24, 2003 09:17PM
Zinger is right on the PDGA rule. My accepting cash in Grand Masters (just don't ask me why it's a cash division) keeps me from playing in tournaments that don't have a GM division.

I could step up to Pro Masters but then I'm competing with pro level players that are 20 years younger than me...ten years younger is bad enough!

@#$%& I'm old! ;-)
DC,
It is the policy of most TD's once you accept a cash prize. You may no longer play in Am Divisional play. Even though from tournament to tournament there is know way to know who did what. The tournament design doesn't inform the other td's about what you did or did not receive just a place projection. That is why it is so hard to force some one to move up unless the td remembers what that particular player does.
Benny
Re: Accepting cash as an amateur
January 26, 2003 09:25AM
This situation will now be greatly assisted by the quick posting and updating of tournament points and results by the gentlemen maintaining this fine website. It will be hard for someone to cash as a pro and then play down to swindle plastic from us lowly ams ever again. Great job guys!
Fair
Re: Accepting cash as an amateur
January 26, 2003 08:11PM
Any amateur player, playing in a pro division, for whatever reason, should just accept prizes in leu of the cash awards. I don't believe any TD's out there have a problem with this practice. Think long and hard before you make that move!

Turning Pro is a something to think about before you do it. I have played with the GrandMasters fo most of the last year, never finished in the money, but if I ever do, I will more than likely just take prizes. I also like to play with a lot of my Advanced Master friends.

One thing about the GrandMaster division, you sure get to play with some pretty great people, and you learn a lot too.
jim
Re: Accepting cash as an amateur
January 26, 2003 10:44PM
as many of you know the pdga will not allow you to accept prizes anymore , you must turn down cash and give it to the next spot. matthew had to do that at the snc . i think once again the pdga has stepped on themselfs. i would rather see some am playing in the pro divison to see if they can handle it , or on small turn out moving up to make a division stronger. also pro players should try to make them want to stay in the pro division. i would say let not go by that rule but i have learned from grandfathering in the age thing that it brings alot of problems with it. i wish the pdga would think before they make some of these rules up. it keeps alot of td from running pdga events. every rule you make some unpaid td has to enforce them , something to think about ,jim
Re: Accepting cash as an amateur
January 27, 2003 11:49AM
jIM o.,

iI've never cashed (obviously--65 outta 66 in Memphis last year)...but my question is...if an am/adv. plays pro in a SN tourney (as is sometimes the case when the turnout is small in certain divisions), will he be able to accept prizes in lieu of the cash (again only an SN not a PDGA sanctioned event)??

I agree totlally with your observation on the PDGA rule. Griff
Tony Bass
Re: Accepting cash as an amateur
February 18, 2003 04:35PM
I wanted to bring this back to the top because its an interesting discussion. Mr. Jim, so there is no way of accepting prizes instead of cash at a PDGA event, even if the southern Nationals is the ones hosting the tournament? The reason I ask is because I would love to play in the Pro championships in Baton Rouge and see how I stack up, but I'm not going to pay all that money and drive all that way if there is no chance of me winning anything. I mean if I didn't cash that would be fine, but if I did and couldn't take anything home, well that would SUCK!!! I think since ya'll are the one hosting it ya'll could work SOMETHING out!! It would suck if none of us up and coming pros (but still advance in the pdga) couldn't come compete!

TB
Re: Accepting cash as an amateur
February 18, 2003 05:45PM
Hear Hear Tony!!

The light be 'a shinin'!! I agree 100% with your take, and as a fellow Adv... I'd like to hear SNDG's response(no pressure on Jim, of course)...Griff
Re: Accepting cash as an amateur
February 18, 2003 08:49PM
PDGA has their own rules. I wouldn't think the Southern Nationals had any control over it at all. If the PDGA says you can't accept prizes in a PRO Tournament if you want to stay Advanced, then thats the rule. I would think you would have to go talk to them about their rules.

Don't get me wrong. I think it's a stupid rule but it's still the rules, whether it's a PDGA or a Southern National.

Brad
Re: Accepting cash as an amateur
February 18, 2003 09:07PM
It might just be part of taking the risk of playing Pro and cashing. If you're good enough to cash once, it's likely it will happen again. Take the money and run! RwC
No, I get the point that Tony is making. It is along the lines of the $5 fee for being a PGDA/USDGC qualifer.
Yes, it is the most stupid thing I've heard, but it happened to Matt Orum last year in Memphis.

With the way things are now, being able to play pro in SN and Adv in PDGA events, it makes the whole situation sticky.

Since I know that you want to play in the PDGA Am Champs, you are wanting to keep your am status. But even though you are able to hang with the big dogs in the SN, the compitition at Am worlds is just as tough, so why punish you from getting the best warm-up to the Am worlds that you can get. (and knowing you'll do quite well at the SNDGC) I'll talk to Jim O about this in more detail, and see if there isn't a loophole that we can worm our way through. It wouldn't be the same with out you there Bro'.

Peace,
Willy BT
The Zinger
Re: Accepting cash as an amateur
February 19, 2003 09:48AM
Maybe someone can "donate" some sky south west bucks for doing good.
:) They can't say anyything about a "donation".
Tony Bass
Re: Accepting cash as an amateur
February 19, 2003 11:01AM
Will,
Glad to hear that you will at least discuss something with Mr. Jim. If it doesn't work out, then oh well I tried. I would really love to come to that event, because I know I can play well at the Baton Rouge courses. Whether it would be good enough to cash, I don't know. But I sure would like to find out! Thanks for listening!

TB
mac
Re: Accepting cash as an amateur
February 19, 2003 06:53PM
Acept cash=pro. Once a pro, always a pro. No looking back! If you accept cash in a SN sanctioned event you are a SN pro, accept cash in a PDGA sanctioned event, you are a PDGA pro!
Re: Accepting cash as an amateur
February 19, 2003 07:19PM
It would be hard for me to turn down cash! RwC
DC
Re: Accepting cash as an amateur
February 20, 2003 07:05PM
Willy BT wrote:

"But even though you are able to hang with the big dogs in the SN, the compitition at Am worlds is just as tough, so why punish you from getting the best warm-up to the Am worlds that you can get. (and knowing you'll do quite well at the SNDGC)"

Is this to say that the best golfers the SN have to offer are only as good as the best PDGA ams? That's doubtful, so if a player is good enough to cash as a SN pro, he should be good enough to cash as a PDGA pro and should, therefore, be playing pro.

I can respect the fact that you want to see how you would do in the SNC pro tournament; and according to the rules, the fact that you have cashed, means that is the the only SN Championship tournament you can play in anyway. I can also respect your desire to play in the PDGA AM Worlds (or in the AM US Open for that matter--at least it has some strict qualification requirements). Either way it seems like you are testing the waters, and either way it is going to cost you financially.

What would be your cut off for accepting cash? What if you slipped up and won? Last year that would have got you $790 bucks. Giving up my goal of going to the Am Worlds might be worth that much. Not only that, but you qualified for the USDGC now you REALLY get to see how you stack up! Lets say you finished in 15th ($143.50)--maybe thats not worth it. So now you have paid the entry fee (I don't remember what it was let's say $75) to find out that your are one of the better golfers in the SN (a fact you already know). What if you factor in how much your week long trip to Kansas City is going to cost? If you turned down 15th place money ($143) SN entry fee ($75) week in KC living cheap($300) Am World entry fee ($75) you are talking $593. You have to have your own personal cut off in there somewhere. To me, whether or not you take home plastic is of lesser importance. Take the SN entry fee and buy $75 worth of plastic--that was about 21st place last year--to throw at AM Worlds.

As for the rule itself, I can see both sides, but the money for the prizes has to come from somewhere, why should it be from the first pro who didn't cash? He is the one who lost out. Now, you (not specifically you, Tony, just a player in general) are getting the benefit of pro payout but have no commitment to continue to play pro. The rule forces the player to make a decision one way or another. What about Matt Orum last year, is he really the 24th best player in the SN's? If so then he shouldn't be in the advanced division kicking my butt every week. If he just had a great tournament and cashed but is not really consistently that good, then he paid $75 dollars to have some fun and let people know who they would have to deal with in the future. Why is the am player entitled to plastic/prizes?

Just my thougts,

DC
The Zinger
Re: Accepting cash as an amateur
February 20, 2003 08:40PM
DC

The best FEW SN dgers would be competition at the Pro Worlds. Most pro SN golfers are Am World material. The top dogs in the south go else where to play in A-tier tournaments. And it is not many of them. Do you really think Matthew Orum, as good as he is, could really compete against the Climo's of this sport? He cashed this last Pro SNDG championship in Memphis. Just cause one can cash in the Pro division at the SN championship, doesn't always mean one can compete in the PDGA pro division. Matthew is a perfect example of this.
DC
Re: Accepting cash as an amateur
February 20, 2003 09:07PM
Zinger--here is the quote again:

Willy BT wrote:

"But even though you are able to hang with the big dogs in the SN, the compitition at Am worlds is just as tough, so why punish you from getting the best warm-up to the Am worlds that you can get. (and knowing you'll do quite well at the SNDGC)"

I was pointing out that this quote implies (but I seriously doubt was intened to mean) that Tony is good enough to hang with the big dogs of the SN and acknowledges the he will do quite well at the SNDGC while at the same time indicating the competition at the AM Worlds will be just as tough, thus equating the 2 events. I was pointing out that our pros (hopefully) are better than the top ams at Worlds.

As for Matthew, I did not mean to imply that he is good enough to compete with the Climos of the world, only that if he were truly the 24th best player in the SN he would be competitive playing open pro in many B or C tier PDGA tournaments as well as all SN events. The fact that he is consistently competetive in the advanced division tells me that he had an outstanding tournament in Memphis but is still an advanced level player on his way up. I was just using him as an example to say that an declared amateur doesn't necesarily have any right to trade cash for plastic (somone has to pay for that plastic) in a pro only tournament. DC
Re: Accepting cash as an amateur
February 20, 2003 09:24PM
You guys have to quit referring to the "Climo's of the World." You can say the Cam Todd's of the World, or the Ron Russell's of the world, because there are plenty of one-time world champs out there, but there is only ONE Climo.
Tony Bass
Re: Accepting cash as an amateur
February 21, 2003 12:03AM
David,

Your points are well taken! But put yourself in my shoes for a minute. We all play Southern Nationals events all year long, just waiting for that Championship at the end of the year. The chance to make up for all those bad tournaments we had, because they all won't mean squat if we can just perform well at the biggest event of the year! I mean its the freaking world series of disc golf, for the south anyway! The last two years I have waited in anticipation for them, only to have finished 2nd and 3rd. Coming within a stroke of taking home a basket! Because oh yeah at the world series, someone, sometimes two someone's (2001 championship), brings home a basket. The most coveted of all trophies (in my opinion)! But now this year, because the advanced division has so struggled in attendance (rarely breaking 10 at most tournaments), and the fact my game has improved a little, leading to some fairly convincing wins, I started playing pro. Mostly just to have more people to compete with. And now I don't get to play in a SNC! And that sucks! Its easy for you to find reasons for PDGA ams to not get something out of paying $75 to play in the SNC because YOU are'nt the one having to do it! How would you feel if you knew you were not going to get to play in the SNC, THE WORLD SERIES OF DISC GOLF! All I've got to say is all you advanced players out there (Grayson, DC, Fair, Kenny, Zinger, Matt O., Bilbo, and Dildo, no wait a minute!) better be glad Steve and I moved up, because with the Am Championship being at Paul B. this year, I'm afraid it would've been a two man race!!! So Grayson start saving your money up now, because you won't have any excuses this time! Unless your scared of Bilbo, no hold on, I mean Boston!

TB
The Zinger
Re: Accepting cash as an amateur
February 21, 2003 12:19AM
DC wrote "I was pointing out that our pros (hopefully) are better than the top ams at Worlds."

I think that most, not all, of our pros would have a really hard time winning Am Worlds.

The top 10-20 at am worlds would, to me, be considered good pros in the SN series. Thus pointing out that Tony kicks @#$%& at SN tournaments, be he knows he doesn't yet have a chance in the pro ranks in PDGA tournaments where the true PDGA pros show up (Pro worlds). This is why he is wanting to go to Am Worlds.

I would almost put $$ down (if I had some) that he will cash at the Pro SNDG championship, but I would also say he would come in the top 5-15 at AM worlds. (man i remember the days when I could beat him, hell I didn't even know him then, I just knew I beat him :) )


ps. remember this Tony, I'm talking good about you, maybe you could let me beat you one day :P
SNBT#89
Re: Accepting cash as an amateur
February 21, 2003 09:21AM
i think zinger had a genius idea about a "donation"

call it a SN TOUR bonus-- of sorts-- for any AM that whups up in the pro ranks? sort of a "player sponsorship" from the dg community for (being a non bagger) and potentially "takin' home wood" at the SN PRO event...

any AM that "steps up" (instead of bag'n like a dog) and immediately cashes deserves some mo' motivation from the "dg competitive system"

good job tony & steve.

these guys have been playing how long????

i am just glad they're young guns and we won't have to deal with them in masters. :^p
Re: Accepting cash as an amateur
February 21, 2003 10:22AM
If the top Ams at Am Worlds are better than our pros, it only means that they have been sandbagging wherever they normally play, not that the competition is that much better.
As far as Tony and the "true pros", didn't he beat former World Champ Cam Todd by three strokes at Ice Bowl this year? To me, it would mean so much more to cash in any pro event than to win Am Worlds. I feel like if I went to Am Worlds and won, you could take the number of entries in Pro Worlds, and I would be the next best player after all those. I say, step UP and play Pro Worlds. Play at the SN championships in Baton Rouge, qualify for the USDGC, and go test your true mettle. I think stepping down to play Am Worlds is just that, a step down.
#31
Re: Accepting cash as an amateur
February 21, 2003 10:39AM
crow makes a good point... but-- for someone who has only been playing for a few years that wants to "go thru the curve" and test the waters of AM Worlds... before jumping up into the "big leagues" by turning pro-- that to me seems understandable.

and there are many folks in AMS that likely will never have the skillset to dominate the open division.

my main point is i think a youngster could "move up too fast" and miss the opportunity to fill up a "dg resume' with Am Worlds "type" achievements... (matt orum being a good example)
Tony Bass
Re: Accepting cash as an amateur
February 21, 2003 11:06AM
Thank you! Someone finally understands!
#31
Re: Accepting cash as an amateur
February 21, 2003 11:27AM
speaking of good examples... go get em' tony.... you got game dude...
Re: Accepting cash as an amateur
February 21, 2003 02:44PM
There have been some good points on both sides of the "move up to PDGA pro" argument. Tony needs to do what he feels is right for him, no matter what others say. And that seems to be to go to the PDGA Am Worlds where I think he's got a good shot at the title.

But all that aside, Tony's original question was basically "if I play and cash at the SNDGC can I accept prizes in lieu of cash to keep my PDGA Am status?" You stated that you would not want to go, pay the financial requirements of the trip, finish in the cash and come home with nothing.

"...but if I did and couldn't take anything home, well that would SUCK!!!"

But you also said

"I mean if I didn't cash that would be fine..."

So you've said that you're willing to go, see how you stack up and come home with nothing. So it's really just the principle of cashing and not bringing home any prizes that's got you stuck. I guess the answer will rest with WillyBT, but either way, IMHO, you shouldn't miss out on a great opportunity and tournment because you want to bring home some plastic.

Go to Baton Rouge, kick butt and then go kick some more at the Am Worlds.
The Zinger
Re: Accepting cash as an amateur
February 22, 2003 09:22AM
If someone has the chanc to go to Am Worlds and do very good, then that would be the best thing for his disc golf career. He will be noticed, be seen, by potential sponsers. Why do you think Matt O played Juniors at Am Worlds? To hopfully win and be seen by the sponsership world. This is no MY opinion, this is how alot do it! Great oppurtunity for good players.
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