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Why aren't more SNDG events PDGA sanctioned?

Posted by tdwriter 
Would anyone care to comment on why more SNDG events are not also sanctioned by the PDGA. I've been in a discussion with some folks on PDGA.com about that and would like to hear from the SNDG guys why that is the case.

Also, are you a PDGA member and if so, are you current. If not, why?

Thanks, RwC
I don't think that the cost for a PDGA sanctioned event would justify the increase in attendance. If anything, there would probably be a decrease in attendance because of the fee for not being a PDGA member. There is already much discussion about that fee at the SNDG pro finals. Yes, I am a noncurrent PDGA member, #3900. I have not paid my dues for four years because of my strong disagreement with the handling of the age change rule. It should have been grandfathered in like The Southern Nationals Tour did. I am now old enough to play Pro Grandmasters and and may re-up my PDGA membership soon. I hold no grudges toward the PDGA and hope that some day I can help the growth of Disc Golf by keeping a close and working relationship with a good organization.
Thanks Mac. Good to hear from you. RwC
Well, the main reason that I can think of (besides the $) is that it is up to the tournament director of each tournament to decide if he wants the extra hastle of sanctioning his tournament as a PDGA event. Mike K in NO has his Mardi Gras Madness tournament being just a PDGA event (for reasons known only to him) and Toad here in BR has started the La Open which is both.

The City of Mobile Chps used to be a PDGA event, but I believe Joe got tired of the extra hastles as well.

SN tournaments are very easy to run. Subtract $2 from each player and give all the rest back. There are many hidden fees, forms to fill out, now this player rating crap that the TD has to keep up with, who has to pay $2 and who has to pay $7? It really is a whole lot of more work.

That being said, I'm in the process of taking the PDGA officials test, to be an official official. I am current, but just because I was FORCED to renew last Oct to be able to go play in the USDGC. But for the last three years, I have not been current, Just never re-uped.

Later,
Willy BT
PDGA # 10542
SN# 24
Thanks Will. I just renewed this year for the first time in, probably 4-5 years. I'd also like to take the officials test (again). I was an official but they changed some rules and I didn't get another test to keep my official status. Didn't ask for one either and maybe they didn't send me one because maybe I wasn't current at the time. They could have at least sent me a letter. Thanks again. Russ
SNBT#89
Re: Why aren't more SNDG events PDGA sanctioned?
February 19, 2003 10:07PM
just opinions...

as far as pdga sanctioning, i am not against it-- but i would have to agree with what willT says....

i've helped fill out the electronic PDGA TD reports and seen first hand the extra work required and it seems to me that TDs have their hands full as it is-- and considering it COSTS MORE TOO-- it really isn't that much of a benefit to PDGA sanction events...

in comparison... SN helps TD's obtain plastic for AM payouts, has helped install courses regionally, helps staff events (THANKS WILLT AND JOHNK!!!!) and does more for this region that the PDGA ever will.

concerning renewing-- as i discovered more about how the PDGA is managed and the direction they are heading in-- i became convinced that organization is not for moi. imo, that ratings stuff ain't all that great. the disc golf wheel did not need to be reinvented. again.

if others chose to support the PDGA, that is their perogative.

btw, LA has an 83% non renewal rate, all time.

there are presently 14 current members in this state. (the lowest # is 1414)

anyway, it seems to me the leadership of the PDGA have a terminal case of dillusions of grandeur.

they just dropped 45,000$ on a marketing firm and will have to pay a 25,000$ as an exit fee if things do not work out... that marketing firm is attempting to "land" sponsors in the range of 50,000 thru 350,000$.
roflmao.

in this economy? whew... unrealistic goals, imo...

i joined and maintained a membership for four years. i did not renew this year.

i wanted to attend AM worlds and did so twice. that was enough for moi...
btw, you do not need "points" to attend AM worlds.... i got in twice with zero points each time via the waitlist (so sanctioning is not really needed to attend)

i do not have plans nor goals to go win (masters) Pro Worlds. :^p

in my view SN is better.

simple. easy. fun. less expensive.








ps. SN should charge PDGA members 5$ to play in SNQ's

:^p
Thanks VL. You don't need points to get into pro worlds either. I got in in 1993 in Huntsville the same way. It was a week of pure hell for the TD. Got to see a lot of it from the inside. Getting a lot of good feedback. RwC
As for the electronic TD report. I find it is the easiest way to do it. The cover sheet where you enter all the figures helps me see how much money I lost running the event :)

Of course I am a geek, so that is my natural tendency.
Thanks Brian. So how come the PDGA is popular in Birmingham, but elsewhere in Ala., Miss., La., etc., most events are SNDG. Any thoughts? Thanks, Russ.
brian,

you are assuming TDs even have a computer.

if they have to fill it out by hand-- it is even that much more work and send off MORE $ to the PDGA vacuum.

my point was, it is inherently much more work compared to running a SNQ

figuring out payout is basic math.... really simple
I just joined last week. My main motivation was so that I could play in the A-tier Bowling Green Open. Mind you, I've "meaning" to join ever since I started playing (going on 2 years ago). It just seemed like to right thing to do and it isn't terribly expensive at $30 a year for an Am. Heck, it's probably worth it just for the magazine. I've been buying it anyway everytime I go to a JimO tourny. I guess the reason I never joined until now was that the principle of signing up and supporting disc golf didn't outweigh the fact that there aren't very many PDGA tournaments that I could realistically make it to.

-Kary
rasing funds is also a lot of Xtra work for sanctioning a b-teir event. i think its like $2000 min. purse.

and if you cash in a b-teir, 8 months later your name will be in the back of DGWRLD NEWS. woohoo! the 7 pdga members that i know will see my name!!

i didnt renew this year (so far) mainly due to the points sytem. i still cant figure it out! i wasnt pleased either with my first AM WORLDS. very unorganized event. had a good time in miami though. i also protest to what rick rothstein did to all the ams in the kc wide open. i would not play in a tournament that doesnt reward good players.

i'm becoming more and more a recreational player. competing amongst freinds not the world. sthrn ntionls is a simple, good idea and we all owe jim more than a thank you.
The Zinger
Re: Why aren't more SNDG events PDGA sanctioned?
February 20, 2003 10:53AM
The Pdga screwed up by not dividing up into regions. SNDG has got the south running as a group. It's easier to take control of 5-6 states rather than all the states. I have always thought that IMO the PDGA should break off into regions. Then having regional championships. Then the top 20 or so in each region would be invited to the Worlds.

But I think more SN tournaments aren't Pdga sanctioned is the simple fact of why we play SN, a different option. That, to me, is why we have SN; for people who don't want to play PDGA. It woudn't make since to sanction a SN tournament when the reason we play SN is because we don't want to play PDGA.



ps: What's the big deal about the magazine? A year subscription to Playboy or Maxim is cheaper and the articles are more interesting! ;)
I, too, am a noncurrent pdga number holder- 3041 - and noncurrent official. I am noncurrent on purpose. All the PDGA wants is your money. There are no direct benefits to be a member or to renew except to give mo' $$$. What the DGWN four LATE times a year for $100 NO THANKS. There has never been a PDGA tourney in the state of MS to my knowledge and I even did what little research can be done thru their site. The PDGA is more of a regional thing. Some regions want it some (the south) dont.
I moved here from TX in 1999 and virtually all TX tourneys are PDGA sanctioned so it payed to be a member to save the $5 every time. BUT now that I am here, unfortunately to stay a while, the closest PDGA sanctioned tourneys are a minimum of 3 hours away. N.O., Memphis, Birmingham, and TX is 6 hours away. so for 20 bucks at $5 @ I'm getting off cheap. AND this is assuming I could make these 4 tourneys Which I wont. Didn't go to Memphis and not going to make N.O. Birmingham is still quite questionable (Easter) and the VPO is the same weekend as my youngest daughters birthday so that looks out of reach as well. So why should I fork out $100 to renew??? I personally like the ease of the SN. It seems to be mo'laid back and FUN. Something the PDGA forgot. SO there is no advantage whatsoever for me to to be a member. Therefore I'M NOT. Just my opinion.
FRZBMAN
Memphis was only a PDGA Sanctioned Event last year on Labor Day because the Southern National PRO Tournament was in town. The two regular Events in May and November have not been PDGA Tournaments for a few years now.

Brad
www.Memphisdiscgolf.com
p.s. See you in May FRZBMAN?
To me, Disc Golf is about PEOPLE! The more rules you make, the more rules you have to administer, guess that is why they need so many people to run the PDGA.

Jim Orum has been doing the SNDG since its inception, practically by himself, and the Southern Nationals has enjoyed tremendous growth. I would like to see a comparison made between PDGA and SNDG growth. . . would be VERY interesting thing to see.

Don't know if anyone has addressed the issue or not, but a PDGA sanctioned events take MONTHS of planning. Most of us who TD Southern National events have other things to do that submit paperwork, chase down sponsors, and WAIT for approval. Did I mention WAIT for approval? You want to run a Southern National event, Give Jim a call or email, set a date, get it listed, . .PLAY DISC GOLF!!!!!

I have been to one PDGA Amateur Worlds, in Nashville. Ken Folger was the TD, and in my very humble opinion, did one HELL of a job. I know he had a lot of help, but that takes nothing away from what he accomplished. I was a full event, until there were some personal things that happened that dropped a few players (3 or 4 I believe), and it was an amazingly well run event in every aspect that I saw. . .and I had my eyes WIDE OPEN. . . looking for chinks in the armor so to speak. Not all the Worlds are that well run, case in point. .Miami.

It takes so many resources to even attempt a large PDGA event, . . advertise a SNDG event. . . the people just show up. . . have a great time. .. and they can't wait for the next one. I think it is a case of Big brother (PDGA) needs to take a lesson for the little guy (SNDG). If there was a way to morph the two sanctioning bodies together. . . WOW. . . there would be no limit to where Disc Golf could go.

When you put all the good, the bad. . the ugly, on a scale with one side being the PDGA, and the other the SNDG. .. well. . you are all intelligent people. . . you know which way the scales will tip. .. nuff said!

DG Guy
First I support the SN. This is my web server that this site is on. I don't ask for anything in return. I just wanted folks to understand that before they think I am trying to start trouble. I will be playing a little devil's advocate in this message.

Well, when you run a SNDG event, do you not turn in results? I think you are supposed to. Do you not give $2 a person to the SN. I think you are supposed to. Look, I obviously support SN, so don't get the wrong idea.

Russ, the Bham has had PDGA events because I ran them. I was until now, state coordinator for the PDGA in Alabama. The reason we have not had an SN event in a while is becuase it added no value to our event the last time we did it. Our PDGA membership percentage was 80%+. No one from MS or Mobile came. I know that Jim wants the SN to spread. But for a TD part of the draw to making it an SN is that more people will come. If more people don't come, then you are just giving money to the SN. I mean, you can take some of these comments and substitute SN for PDGA and still have a valid argument.

I plan on running an SN this year. You can't run a combined and get the full effect. There are some SN folks that just will not play in a PDGA event at all. Plus, 4 bucks out of the entry just sits bad with some folks. For almost all novice players, they would pay the PDGA 5 and SN 2. The PDGA does not charge the 2 for Am, Novice and Juniors. My Novice entry is only $10. I probably won't offer Novice at my next PDGA event or SN event. I am running an event March 1 that is not sanctioned anywhere in hopes that these players will come and feel they are getting a good return on their money.

Anyhow, this has rambled because I stopped and ate dinner in the middle. I just hate to see what seems to be somewhat blind dislike for the PDGA. Yet those same people see the SN as the polar opposite. In fact they are closer than you think. To me, they are both good.

Brian.
SNBT#89
Re: Why aren't more SNDG events PDGA sanctioned?
February 20, 2003 08:13PM
the PDGA was a juggernaut without a steering wheel for a while, but within the past coupla seasons there are a few new folks on the BOD that i think will really end up being a good thang for DG.

pat govang has "the players" best interest in mind-- first and foremost, hands down, no question.

met & spoke with & threw a few holes with him at pro worlds & he seems really sincere about his passion to do a good job FOR THE PLAYERS.

i may not agree with the sports marketing huge expenditure he instigated-- but i do really think he is a go getter and is really trying his absolute best.

more good news, imo-- the guy who started and manhour'd the actual pdga.com web site-- marty hapner-- was VOTED into the position of oversight director. he is not a yes man by any means... one smart mofo, too...

the membership was wise to vote marty into that postion.

a watchdog web hack who ain't afraid to bark-- to keep the PDGA BOD in line... gotta love that. :^p

for any young gun ADV or not so young ADV MASTER player that has a goal to attend WORLDS.... you'd be doing youself the biggest favor there is by meeting that goal...

regardless of how the event ends up being "run" or managed-- you WILL HAVE A BLAST.

think of hundreds of dg'rs taking over a hotel in some city for a week-- (a city with four courses) ... 2 rounds a day four days straight.... then the semi finals IF YOU QUALIFY... and then the finals for the top four badmofos in each division offered.

if you win you are a bonafied world champion. pretty cool stuff in my opinion.

too much fun, if there is such a thing, i tell ya...

btw, opinions are like toes... most of us get started with at least ten.
these are just some of mine.
More good stuff. Thanks to everyone.

VL, I played in the Pro Worlds in 1993 in Huntsville and I can attest that it was certainly an experience. I didn't play worth a crap, but I got an ace on hole #7 at Redstone Arsenal and didn't finish last (very close, but not LAST). Think I got heatstroke one day, but it's hard to tell. Didn't make the final, but then again, I was able to videotape most of it. The whole week WAS a blast. Would love to one day make another one just to be there. RwC
SNBT#89
Re: Why aren't more SNDG events PDGA sanctioned?
February 20, 2003 09:02PM
hey russ.

i went to nashville and miami (Am Worlds) and worked as a computer geek staffer all week an the last Pro Worlds in Houston...

great experiences.

the best i could do at AM Worlds was 21st in the world in Adv Masters. :)

i missed the semis by five strokes in nashville and by ONE FRIGGIN STROKE in miami. i doinked a putt on my last hole too (to not make the semis in miami.)

i admit to being extremely exhausted after 2 rounds a day for four days straight-- on unfamiliar BRUTAL courses.

mostly just wanted to see what it was like to play in an event with a division of 100 guys or more. (ADV MASTERS)
SNBT#89
Re: Why aren't more SNDG events PDGA sanctioned?
February 20, 2003 09:06PM
ps brian.

thanks bigtime for wwwhat you do...
VL, I'd love to make an Am Worlds one day as well, since I've never won ( and likely won't) cash in a pro division. The only problem with those events is I have to reserve one of my three weeks of vacation to go. Plus, it's not really cheap, especially if the whole family goes.

That's why the SNDG ams is more attractive right now. Two days, four rounds (?) not too far away and probably a great payoff. Not to meantion, competing with the best!

RwC
ripit
Re: Why aren't more SNDG events PDGA sanctioned?
February 23, 2003 04:05PM
Well, it took a while, but my old PDGA argument has finally been vindicated. Thanks to all of the goobers who vehemently defended the PDGA only to drop out of it soon afterward. Thank you. Thank you.

I do, however, agree with the hiring of a professional firm for organizational and fund raising purposes. Sportsloop has had a lot more success with former clients than some people seem to want others to think. I think that we should give them a chance before condemning them.
Brian,
It takes me a while to get through all of these, but when you were talking about SN players not coming to your event, so it wasn't a qualifer, what about the PDGA members that may need to use that tournament as a way to be able to get into the SNDG chps. Because if you have not played in a qualifer, you will not be able to get a chance to play in the last USDGC qualifer of the year.

That is the main reason I support having more sn / PDGA tournaments, and as soon as the Masters issue goes away, (this year I believe), then there should be no other conflicts. Except there is extra $ being taken out of the entry fees.


We also do not take out the $2 SN fee from Nov, Jr, or Beg divisions in SN tournaments.
they get their 2 discs and a mini, or a sm bag for their entry fee, and the experience of playing in a tournament setting. Here in BR we do have plaques for those divisions, and depending on the # of people in each division, I'll pony out a little extra to them as well.
Remember, the beginers, novice, juniors are the future of disc golf, let's keep em around a while.

That's why I apploud your tournament just for them, great job Bro'.

Later,
Will T
Brian,
Since Will T. is dredging up your old post I’ll add my 2 cents. I’m not sure which event you were referring to when you said “The reason we have not had an SN event in a while is because it added no value to our event the last time we did it. Our PDGA membership percentage was 80%+. No one from MS or Mobile came.” I remember playing an SN/PDGA event at your course a couple of years ago and I am from MS. I think it was my first PDGA. Now I make every Birmingham tournament my schedule will allow. I probably would have never started playing any tournaments if it weren’t for the SN and Jim. Maybe that isn’t the best argument for SN sanctioning, but I submit that SN sanctioning is a benefit and certainly worth the $2 extra entry fee. Of course I am now an addict so I’ll continue to make all of your events I can regardless of sanctioning, but I like SN/PDGA’s. You are much appreciated for your SN contributions and for hosting PDGA’s in the south.
Just to let people know, I am in the process of trying to pass that tricky little test, and when I do, there will be at least one more SN / PDGA tournament in BR (Besides the La Open)
Will, I'll soon be taking that same tricky little test and will be available to help you in any way with your efforts.
The Rocket City Blast May 24-25 will be both SN and PDGA. As the guy who replaced Brian as State Coordinator I would feel highly uncomfortable running a large unsanctioned event. As an Alabama disc golfer I would like to see lots of folks there so I'm doing both. We'll see how it works out. Addie is working sponsorship for me so we can make up for the $4 per player that will be sucked out of the purse. I'm pretty sure we'll be adding cash. It would be nice if the PDGA and SN would back off a buck per player in dual events but I don't see that happening any time soon. Neither organization would see the advantage. You can find info, and download a flyer and registration form for the Blast at:

[www.west-point.org]
hey matt,

congrats on the State Coordinator election...

i doubt that either organization will likely "back off" of the sanctioning fees...

oh, FYI it can be more than 2$ that a TD must turn in to the PDGA... if a dg'er is not a member. (for each non pdga golfer the event total for sanctioning fees can be as much as: 2$SN + 2$PDGA + 5$nonmemberfee = 9$)

i think it is a good idea to dual-sanction a few events... in two events toad was able to draw golfers that were not the normal "draw"

toad runs a dual sanctioned event-- the sky did not fall... his goal is to provide a regional venue for local dg'rs to have the opportunity to obtain points for attempting to qualify for worlds.

his event grew leaps and bounds in two years, IMO... (he will do very well to continue that "curve"-- he will need help!!)

the first year the LA OPEN attracted golfers from Austin (Joel Kelly & Chris) and the last event drew even more texicans, one of which is the reigning Am Grand Master Champ, Willyc and houstonians too (Ching Lizardo)...

Toad organized a fundraising effort MONTHS before his events (25$ hole sponsors: those donations went to a "general budget") to help cover all the extra costs without "hitting up the entry fees" too harshly -- and also keith johnson(AM Worlds TD) toad & i donated tons of AM Worlds goodies to help enhance the AM Payout... (point is-- the extra fundrasing & equipment sponsors REALLY made a huge diff-- come time to pay off the PDGA, SN, BREC, etc)

thanks again to Fish for his ongoing major support of TD's

a dual sanctioned event, i believe, will eventually bring in a large crowd...
SN is a bigtime draw 'round these parts all by itself-- and the PDGA sanctioning will help to draw folks who might not otherwise attend.

one result is you've helped to qualify someone for the SN Finals that might not have otherwise been invited -- AND it might motivate someone to attend worlds.... which is all good stuff.
Matt, SN "backing off" the $2 is not practical, since that is where all the extra money for the championships comes from. There is no SN membership fee like the PDGA. Where does the extra $2 PDGA go, anyway? Just curious.
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