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? on Interference Rule

Posted by PB 
PB
? on Interference Rule
March 11, 2003 10:59PM
I threw #17 at Tombigbee SP. At the exact same time a truck pulling a boat was coming down the road. I bounced around in the boat for a while and landed OB. We refered to the PDGA rulebook: *the disc is played from where it comes to rest.* Since the disc came to rest OB as the rule says and on a normal OB throw the rule of verticality comes into play, we were kind of confussed. The rules did not address interference that resulted in OB, so we decided I could play the disc from its lie without a penalty. Is there another rule we overlooked, should I have taken a stroke, or did we play it right?
The Zinger
Re: ? on Interference Rule
March 11, 2003 11:10PM
I would think that if it landed OB, then It would be OB. But since I never been to Tombigbee, I don't know the layout of the hole. But I assume that going over the road the truck was on wasn't in the game plan. So since what you hit was OB, then I would think you would take a penalty stroke from where the disc was last inbounds. Just like if you hit a car in a parking lot, or hit a dog in someones back yard, or....well you get the picture.
PB
Re: ? on Interference Rule
March 11, 2003 11:20PM
There is a road on the right with trees coming in to play on the left. A lot of people throw a slight hyzer which can travel over the road and land by the pin. I wanted -5 for hitting a moving boat, but the guys wouldn't let me get away with it.
vl
Re: ? on Interference Rule
March 11, 2003 11:22PM
you cannot stand OB to throw a disc...

for instance if a disc lands on a shoreline and not completely surrounded by water (3/4 wet - 1/4 dry)... you could not take a legal stance in the OB water... that is why there is a 3 meter relief... with no penalty.


in your case, as you described it-- you were OB... (your disc was "surrounded" by OB)
PB
Re: ? on Interference Rule
March 11, 2003 11:47PM
Rule 803.08(Out of Bounds) doesn't say "you cannot stand OB to throw a disc." Traveling over or even in OB is legal, in most cases. It is where the disc comes to rest that determines OB. Interference on a moving disc occurs before OB. It would make sense to follow rules on Interferece before OB in this case, but the rules don't define this situation.
vl
Re: ? on Interference Rule
March 12, 2003 12:12AM
RULE: 803.03 a (3)
what i was attempting to point out is if your disc was surrounded by an OB area, you could not legally stand behind it and throw...

suppose your disc had glanced off a tree-- instead of a boat, and landed in the middle of some OB pavement... you'd be out of bounds.

regardless of how it got there (unless it somehow gets moved OB-- a bystander tosses it OB, a dog picks it up and drops it OB-- then the group would have to make a determination on where it had landed...)

glancing of off something-- and landing OB... is OB... regardless of if it is a boat, car, bird, electrical wire, tree branch, somebody... whatever...


what it boils down to is...

RULE: 803.08 A OUT OF BOUNDS
A disc shall be considered out-of-bounds only when it comes to rest and it is clearly and completely surrounded by the out-of-bounds area.

your disc came to rest out of bounds... therefore it is OB....
chalk it up to bad luck...
PB
Re: ? on Interference Rule
March 12, 2003 12:17AM
Then the rule on Interfernce needs to be amended.
PB, you were out of bounds. You could have bounced off the boat and landed 10 ft from the basket. You wouldn't be complaining then, I'm certain. =8) Interference is a random act that can work in your favor, or against. The rule is fine.

Not sure how you are trying to apply the rule of verticality. This rule simply defines the OB line (edge of the road in this case) as a vertical plane. You can take relief up or down that plane but that wouldn't apply on a flat road and presumably flat ground next to the road.

Also, vl is correct: you must be in-bounds to throw. 803.03A(3): "When the disc is released, a player must have all of his or her supporting points in bounds."

That's why you get one meter relief, even when you're in bounds but within one meter of OB. You're given space to take a legal stance.

You should have taken a stroke, and played in one meter from where your disc first crossed into the road. You also should have waited to throw until the truck and boat passed. =8)
Re: ? on Interference Rule
March 12, 2003 06:17AM
Gogy is right. . .

You should have marked your position, using the rule of verticality, taken ONE meter relief from the line, penalized yourself one stroke, and gone from there.

If you had hit a tree and went out of bounds, it would have been the same situation. You would have ended up "surrounded" by OB!

If you had thought for a minute before you threw, you should have waited until the moving vehicle was out of the flight path of the disc, as you are not supposed to throw a disc that could hit someone, or something, to cause injury or damage. I do not believe anyone in your group would have tried to stroke you for playing safely. After all. . . you would have been liable for damage to the vehicle, or persons you hit with you disc!

Anyway you turn it, upside down or backwards, the results are teh same. . . you were OB and needed to act accordingly.


DG Guy
jim
Re: ? on Interference Rule
March 12, 2003 06:51AM
disc golf guy is right , the last place you legally saw it last, in one meter, .you should not throw a disc if you might hit any moving thing or live standing thing . now go ace one for me and have some fun, jim
PB
Re: ? on Interference Rule
March 12, 2003 09:36AM
The point of my question has been lost...We were in a heated bag tag match. The bizarre situation occured. We didn't know how to play it, so we refered to the rules. The rule on interference doesnt address OB. If it was OB, which I dont doubt it was, you would play it from the last legal area it was over with a one throw penalty. However, the interference rule says play it from where it rests(If it is 10 ft. from the hole, so be it). It is impossible to play it "where it rests* and from the *last legal area.* We didn't know what to do, and the PDGA Rulebook didn't help much.
The Zinger
Re: ? on Interference Rule
March 12, 2003 09:44AM
Interference comes in play when you disc has come completely to rest, and then something, or someone moves it. Say you AND your group can easily see your disc lying half in bounds. And a moment later the truck with the boat comes down the road and the truck's wheel or the boat trailor's wheel runs over the disc (all this after the disc has completely come to rest), and the disc bounces up and is now completely out of bounds. You could use the Interference rule(I think) and make group decision on the best estimated spot where the disc first was.

If I am wrong, someone please tell me cause I do have a question about it.

If a disc gets stuck up in a tree(OB) and has come to a complete stop, and the last person in you group throws and knocked it down. Could someone in the group call the Interference rule and mark it OB?

Just a question I thought of while writing the first paragraph above.
The Zinger
Re: ? on Interference Rule
March 12, 2003 09:55AM
nevermind about my question above, I just read the rule. I should have looked it up before I read it.
The Zinger
Re: ? on Interference Rule
March 12, 2003 09:56AM
i meant to say "I should have looked it up before I ASKED it", not read it. :)
Re: ? on Interference Rule
March 12, 2003 10:01AM
PB, the interference rule does apply in this case even though it doesn't say anything about interference combined with OB in the rules. Although unfortunate, the interference by the truck caused your disc to land OB and the interference rule says that the disc should be played from where it comes to rest. since your disc ended up being OB, it is OB and your next shot should be thrown from where the disc went OB, and you get a penalty throw added. I'm not sure why you think that you couldn't play from the "last legal area" which would be the point where your disc crossed into the road.

zinger, there are two situations regarding the interference rule, and you pointed out the one about a disc a rest correctly, and the other situation i have just described. now, about the disc in the tree: if the disc falls out as a result of another player's disc hitting the tree, the disc should be played from where it lands on the ground, with no penalty for OB or interference.

anymore questions, i am a certified official and will be glad to entertain them.
vl
Re: ? on Interference Rule
March 12, 2003 10:06AM
when a golfer throws a disc, and that disc hits or glances off an object-- that is not considered interference...

it is, however, unfortunate.
PB, the PDGA rules can't govern every small situation that might arise because the rules would become too cumbersome and impossible to interpret. That's why Rule 803.00E specifically states:

"If any point in dispute is not covered by the rules, the decision shall be made in accordance with fairness. Often a logical extension of the closest existing rule or the principles embodied in these rules will provide guidance for determining fairness. "

In your apparent case, combine the principles of the two rules.

1) Interference: play the disc where it lies. It lies out of bounds, so the logical extension is to now go to the rules governing OB.

2) OB: Take the stroke, then play the disc either 1) one meter in from where it went out of bounds or 2) the previous lie or re-tee.

However, your case is even simpler because vl is correct. According to 803.06A, objects don't interfere with discs in flight; only animals and people do. Thus, your disc is simply OB. Proceed according to OB rules.

In several instances, you may have to combine more than one rule to get your answer. Let common sense be your guide.

Mike
(also PDGA certified official)
The Zinger
Re: ? on Interference Rule
March 12, 2003 11:20AM
Goby- actually "A thrown disc that hits another player, spectator, or animal shall be played where it comes to rest. A thrown disc that is intentionally deflected or was caught and moved shall be marked as close as possible to the point of contact, as determined by a majority of the group or an official."

So your statement "According to 803.06A, objects don't interfere with discs in flight; only animals and people do.", is wrong. :P

gosh i like proving PDGA certified officials wrong ;)
Zinger, not sure how you proved me wrong. Some players and spectators qualify as people, some players, spectators and all dogs qualify as animals. Trees and boats are neither people nor animals. Inanimate objects (e.g., boats) can't *intentionally* deflect or catch and move discs.
The Zinger
Re: ? on Interference Rule
March 12, 2003 11:55AM
Oh, I thought your statement "objects don't interfere with discs in flight; only animals and people do", meant that only animals and people would be considered a reason for using the Interference rule.
Re: ? on Interference Rule
March 12, 2003 01:12PM
I'm still not sure why the interference rule was even brought up in the case as told. You threw the disc. The disc flew. You also threw it over the road. Now a truck comes. Your throw hits the truck,( BOAT). SO WHAT.
Now your disc comes to rest OB. What's the problem here?????
You are simply OB. A penalty throw is added to your score and you mark your lie where the disc was last in bounds given the 1 meter in off the ob line and you play on. I see no dilemma here. I also see no interference. Maybe next time you will attempt to throw the slight anhyzer route where the disc's flight will remain in bounds the whole time. Maybe not. But you should only throw when you are ready and the area you are throwing to is clear of hazards.
frzbman
SN TAG # 14
Zplasticmaster
Re: ? on Interference Rule
March 12, 2003 02:29PM
I agree with frzbman.
the zinger strikes again!
vl
Re: ? on Interference Rule
March 12, 2003 07:03PM
a few years back i was throwing a casual round with chrisH... we were driving on the original hole 18 location at acadiana and chris ripped a nice drive and pretty much parked it... twenty feet or so i guess...

i stepped into the tbox to drive and noticed a very young kid picking up chris' disc... and the youngster slung the disc and it crashed chains and fell in the basket.
The Zinger
Re: ? on Interference Rule
March 12, 2003 09:18PM
what did I strike again Errin?
Most interesting thread. I was thinking, aside from hitting the boat and bouncing back in bounds, another way of not getting a stroke is if the disc stayed in the boat. Would you retrieve it from the boat and mark it a meter from where it was last in play? The boat is not OB.

Save you some time...it's OB. Get that @#%* disc (should have thrown the other disc) take your stroke like a spoon full of sugar and next round stay out of the street.

Speaking of streets, for those who have played Burns Park, city electric has come along Funland Drive there next to holes #16, #17, and #18 and cut the trees to clear the powerlines. Holes #17 and #18 are ok but #16 is wide open for the anhyzer shot. But don't get suckered, several people tried it and under estimated the distance and turnover required and ended up falling back into the street. More on the course in "Phase 1 Burns Park Complete"
Re: ? on Interference Rule
March 13, 2003 07:32AM
Bill, if the truck pulling the boat parks in a lot that's out of bounds, I would think the disc would be out of bounds as well.
But as far as his original questions, I would certainly rule that disc was out of bounds and that the next shot be played from the point it first went OB. I suppose it's possible that the shot, which was apparently far enough in the road to hit the boat, could have continued out of bounds or it could have come back in. To me it's no different than hitting a tree, a power line or a parked car and ending up OB. RwC
PB
Re: ? on Interference Rule
March 13, 2003 03:19PM
Thanks for all the input. We knew a parked car or boat would not be Interference. Since the boat was being controled by a person, I concluded that the boat was a "spectator"(like if a kid took a big stick and slapped your disc out of the air). I have another question to maybe avoid this situation again. If there is a somewhat steady flow of traffic on a road near a hole in the path of flight you choose, can you have an extension of the 30 second time limit or must you choose another route to go?
Your 30 second time limit starts after the area is "clear and free of distractions." That's probably good enough, but you could also argue for the delay for safety reasons. I doubt anyone would argue that point, as long as the delay isn't too excessive. I'm assuming this is a road through the park (scattered cars driving by) and not a heavily traveled road such as an interstate. If the road is heavily traveled, an alternate route for throwing would be warranted.

If this is a problem during tournaments (e.g., throwing over the roadway is a common shot), the TD should state how it should be handled. The TD has the right to allow extra time for the drive so that any cars can pass by without fear of getting the paint chipped. =8)
The Zinger
Re: ? on Interference Rule
March 13, 2003 05:59PM
PB- "Since the boat was being controled by a person, I concluded that the boat was a "spectator"(like if a kid took a big stick and slapped your disc out of the air)."

The rule once again says, ""A thrown disc that hits another player, spectator, or animal shall be played where it comes to rest. A thrown disc that is intentionally deflected or was caught and moved shall be marked as close as possible to the point of contact, as determined by a majority of the group or an official."

The main word hear is INTENTIONALLY. The boat didn't intentionally hit your disc. The disc then landed out of bounds. You play it where it lies, and since you disc was laying OB, you would take a penalty and place it a meter in from where it was last inbounds. If a kid with a stick, swung and hit the disc from mid-air, then this would be when you would use the Interference rule(since he intentionally deflected the disc.
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