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Suggestions for SNAC Guidelines

Posted by John K 
Suggestions for SNAC Guidelines
October 31, 2005 03:59PM
Suggestions for Southern National Am Championship Guidelines.....

1.All SN fees are turned over to the host city along with a breakdown regarding the amount that was collected for each division. This information is provided by the SN treasurer to the host city, SN Board and SN players via the SN forum.

2.Each division should payout a minimum of 125% of SN fees collected during the year in their respective division. If $1000 in SN fees were collected from the Advanced division then $1250 should be paid out in fair retail value. See below for definition of Fair Retail value.

3.Each division should payout a minimum of 125% of SNAC entry fee. If $1000 in SN entry fees were collected from the Advanced division then $1250 should be paid out in fair retail value.

4.What constitutes Payout?
...a.Payout includes the prizes given out to the top 35% in the advanced am divisions (Adv Men, Adv Masters, Adv Women)
...b.Payout includes the prizes given out to the top 45% in the am divisions (Am Men, Am Masters, Am Women, Juniors)
...c.Trophies in ACTUAL cost for each division.
...d.Payout includes the player’s package that is given out to all registered players in their respective division.
...e.Payout includes any prizes for contests that are broken down by division, such as putting, driving contests.

5.Each player should get a players package with a fair retail value of at least $35 including as a minimum:
...a.2 discs, at least 1 being a tournament disc
...b.Towel
...c.Mini
...d.All items included in the player’s pack other than discs will be valued at cost.

6.The tournament will be at a minimum 3 and ½ rounds. There can be a cut after the third round.

7.Each division will have trophies/plaques for 1st, 2nd and 3rd.

8.Sponsorship money: All sponsorship money raised by the host club can be designated as the sponsor/host chooses.

9.Baskets:
...a.Each division (except juniors) will have a basket whose quality is equal to the Innova discatcher pro / discraft chainstar for 1st place. (@ $360 retail)
...b.Each division (except juniors) will have a basket whose quality is equal to or greater than the Lightning DB5 / Innova Discatcher sport for 2nd place. (@ $175-200 retail)
...c.The SN Board will provide the baskets for the SNAC at the wholesale value (or should it be at retail value?).

10.The host city will provide to the SN Board a complete accounting of the money taken in (ie sponsorship money, SN fees, entry fees) and money paid out giving actual cost of item with photocopied receipts. Accountability is important.

11.Fair Retail Value: This is the value of the merchandise at the average cost to a player buying from a vendor. The pricing of each type of disc used for payout (Dx, pro line, CE) must be approved by the SN board to ensure the pricing is fair.

12.A minimum of 2 SN Board members will be present at the SNAC to ensure the quality of the event is maintained.

13.The minimum extra events will be two of the following:
...a.putting contest
...b.driving contest
...c.skills contest
...d.(any contests you'd like to see?)


I know that even with these guidelines the SNAC if run correctly can still make money. That’s just a fact if discs can be purchased at 40% of retail. I personally haven’t purchased large orders of discs so it may be more or less. The question remains should the host city be allowed a certain amount of profit? (I’ve heard $500 being acceptable) Should any profit be returned to the Southern Nationals to be used for stuff like banners or even directed into the SN Pro Championship? Should the host city be required to forward a percentage of profits to the SN Pro championship?

I think that the ams should be given more than they pay in for sure (is 125% fair should it be more or less).

These are some of my thoughts, and a starting point. Is there something I overlooked? Should the SNAC provide a lunch? Should money be used for this? Please post all thoughts. Try and stay constructive if possible.

John k
Re: Suggestions for SNAC Guidelines
October 31, 2005 04:08PM
YOU ARE THE MAN! Very nice outline. Discs are usually about 60% mark up Dx are $5 when you buy 50 or more and reatil for $8. Champion around $7 if you order 100 or more, which then retail at 12 to 14 depending on whos truk you buy them out of! Thanks JK and whomever else helped with this!!!!!!!!
Re: Suggestions for SNAC Guidelines
October 31, 2005 04:31PM
JK, I see the payout percentages being able to be much higher. Unless again we want to allow the host city or club the profits. Lets use the 1k number.
1000
142 champion disc at 7= 994 the reatil value at 12 each= wellover 1700=710 dollars worth of mark up. same thing with the baskets. They can be bought at a nice price and marked up to any price.
This is where it gets tricky and most of the rumors and false claims come from. The only thing I think that need to be agreed on is the retail price on what is to be given away.{less expenses} With it being the CHAMPIONSHIP there should be very little mark up on these items. Do in part that I am sure during the year the am's have already paid that TAX!
The host club should get something for there efforts and $500.00 is a fair price. This is still a very nice start and I look forward to it being implemented!
Re: Suggestions for SNAC Guidelines
October 31, 2005 04:35PM
this is the thing I am most concerned about - going on what boba said

i have been to tournaments where the 'vendor' sold champion plastic for $16 (and no they were not dyed) - when u could buy those same discs at $12-$13 (tax included) at most other places/vendors

yet when we won our vouchers, we were required to spend them at the vendor who was overpriced - so in theory, every champion plastic disc that was sold, he made atleast $3 more than the other places i've bought discs (yet they manage to make profit too)

so for example when our voucher said we won $64... it was really only a $52 value
Re: Suggestions for SNAC Guidelines
October 31, 2005 05:04PM
I think a time frame on the accountability is important. How long is enough time to provide this accountability. I know from the smaller tourneys that I run that accountability could be had to a certain degree ahead of time if run correctly. But how much time should be allowed afterwards for full accountability? I would say a month at the long side but it could easily be settled within a week.

Jeff
Re: Suggestions for SNAC Guidelines
October 31, 2005 05:26PM
VENDOR LIST CONTROLLED AND APPROVED BY THE BOARD....

If ya ain't on board with the Board then you cannot sell at the Championships....

that way "vouchers" could be used for any vendor attending as their prices at on that day would all coincide....

of course, only utilize the vendors on an "as needed basis"....SN get the bulk orders done, tourney discs, etc.(with the help and contribution of effort by the Host as well).....

imho.....

CERTAINLY MORE BENEFICIAL THAN THE DRIVEL!!! Griff

Griff




Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 10/31/2005 05:30PM by Griff (CounselorGriff).
Re: Suggestions for SNAC Guidelines
October 31, 2005 05:29PM
Basket - that's one of the reason I stated the "retail" price of the plastic be approved by the board so that the vendor/host city price isn't making the price up past what would be considered fair.

Boba - what do you think the payout scale should be? 40% for adv divisions and 50% for am divisions. My consideration when making the payout at at the 35/45% was that the player will be getting a $35 players pack (no sponsor discs) If the percentage is spread out to much then it will be very top heavy with the majority being in the basket positions. A quality basket wholesales at $300-320 (correct me if that's incorrect)

I'll be the first to admit that the sn board was only vaguely involved in the am championship and that was a mistake on our part. I'll do my part to ensure it doesn't happen again.

John k
Re: Suggestions for SNAC Guidelines
October 31, 2005 05:40PM
JK, that is correct on the price of the basket. Payout scale would be set up based on how much in PP and how much entry fee was set at. All in all it looks to be a nice start and the rest can be in a nice little spread sheet!
You the Man Shoeshine boy!
Re: Suggestions for SNAC Guidelines
October 31, 2005 06:01PM
how many vendors are there ?

It is a great start, You also need to put an emphasis on Pre-registration.

How about having championship guidelines with various paragraphs for the nuances for each of championships. (Am, Pro, Doubles). By doing this you will hopefully be correcting any major issues.



Psycho Don (Donald Tomasko)
SN board member
*previous owner of the Gnome*
Owner Psycho-Fish Disc Golf
dtomasko@psychofishdg.com
[www.psychofishdg.com]
Re: Suggestions for SNAC Guidelines
October 31, 2005 06:10PM
how about if you dont preregister,you dont get a players pack


"i am pure EVIL,now give me your funds"
creator of the most popular thread on the S.N.forums of all time
"Screw your Friggin Points"
PAID FOR BY THE FRIENDS AND SUPPORTERS OF THE GregOsnose "Sandbaggers, help the sport, help yourself - move up."
[profiles.yahoo.com]
Re: Suggestions for SNAC Guidelines
October 31, 2005 06:58PM
How about if you don't preregister, you don't play. If you don't preregister for the USDGC, do you get to play?
Re: Suggestions for SNAC Guidelines
October 31, 2005 07:17PM
did I miss entry fees, somewhere? Should those be set by the board? Between SN collected fees and set entry fees, the host city would have an excellent idea of where money should be allocated and would have a rough idea of the payouts well in advance. Everyone else would have a clear concept of the financial overview as well. The host city/club could then be measured in part by the sponsorship dollars they raised taking the event(s) above and beyond the board-set parameters.

A Vendor List with a reasonable retail price range is an excellent idea. I think it is important, though, that Vendors who want to do business at the Championships need to pass on a reasonable piece of their margin to the host club. I used this formula with Jim O for the doubles Championship and was able to split the resulting margin between the pro and am ranks as cash added with everyone coming out a winner.

I like baskets supplied by the SN at wholesale plus 50% of the margin between wholesale and retail. This will allow the host club to use their 50% of the margin to pass into the purses and the SN will make some rainy day money for their trouble.

I would like to see a return of the idea I read somewhere on one of these threads about SN Board approved vendors and a universal SN cash that could be used for payouts good at any of these vendors. Maybe someone from Lafayette or Birmingham or Memphis might not find what they were looking for in Jim's trailer at the end of an event and might like to return home and be able to spend their "course cash" with one of their local suppliers. It has always struck me as a very imperfect system when you payout to ams in some type of redeemable chit that they must spend on the spot (alhtough it is better than handing them a stack of plastic they may or may not have any use for. Why not instead, have vendors apply for the SN seal of approval. After an event like the Championship, the TD and staff can make immediate restitution to the on-site vendors using a formula such as 33% of the margin:

If an advanced player, for instance gets $100 in SN cash, he or she can purchase $100 worth or plastic or other merchandise at the retail prices. In fact, the merchandise cost $70 wholesale for a profit margin of $30. Under my suggested guidelines, the vendor's profit would be $20 per $100 given away and the host club could pass $10 for each $100 given away back into the pot.

The money to cover the SN course cash not used immediately could be given to the SN treasurer and SN approved vendors could redeem the collected SN vouchers through the treasurer.

of course I have alternately been howling and drinking wine since my victory at the Bogue so this might or might not make sense.
Re: Suggestions for SNAC Guidelines
October 31, 2005 08:55PM
tournaments in texas simply charge vendors a table fee for an event, much like a gun show or craft fair would.

I think a table fee and the usual prize donations would be the most that should be required from a vendor, unless the vendor was directly responsible for the payout.

there is a huge difference between a vendor being present peddling inventory and a vendor who is responsible for the entire payout. Giving a portion of profit away in exchange for handling payout for the event is acceptable, but just for setting up to sell is not.

I still think that for a championship the host city should be provided with inventory instead of cash. All other expenses would be paid by sponsors and entry fees that could be received early if there were incentives.

another point is holding any tournament in the deep south in august is asking for the worst possible conditions, simply miserable.




Russell Bourg
former PDGA member # 26070
Re: Suggestions for SNAC Guidelines
October 31, 2005 09:29PM
So lets move the championships to June.

Psycho Don (Donald Tomasko)
SN board member
*previous owner of the Gnome*
Owner Psycho-Fish Disc Golf
dtomasko@psychofishdg.com
[www.psychofishdg.com]
Re: Suggestions for SNAC Guidelines
October 31, 2005 09:34PM
Sorry - change the season dates from June 1st - May 31st to April 1st - March 31st.

Move everything this year and just have a short season.

Psycho Don (Donald Tomasko)
SN board member
*previous owner of the Gnome*
Owner Psycho-Fish Disc Golf
dtomasko@psychofishdg.com
[www.psychofishdg.com]
Re: Suggestions for SNAC Guidelines
October 31, 2005 09:39PM
jim orum, i know the last time i bought baskets it was close to $3000. there no profit in that, then you add the players pack all the extras, the plaques, it can be done,and very little can be made if you do the above, i think a nice players pack along with good basket should take care of the problem, but each year we need to let hosting cities know what to do, and the last hosting citie should help with info on what worked and what did not, but as go from city to city i think each one would like to try something new out, there hands should not be to tied down, great posting above, jim
Anonymous User
Re: Suggestions for SNAC Guidelines
November 01, 2005 11:52AM
while Jk's post is a good start, as NO Mayor Ray Nagin would say, "Y'all are thinking so small."

instead of looking at just the SNAC, why not address the entire SN series as a whole? as in, why not combine the expenses of all 3 SNC's along with the various fees & costs that the SN incurs throughout the year?

that would mean of course, combining all the $2 fees into one pool, instead of saying that the am money must go to the SNAC, pro to SNPC. while it's good in theory to give back all the am money to the SNAC, it hasn't worked very well in practice, has it?

once the revenue is pooled, then take out the SN expenses first. the website, the end-of-year awards (Mike Preston, Wally Free, ET award), $100 a month to Kittrell for his time, $500 for advertising the series or SNC's, the cost of the discs/plaques given out to the top 5 points earners, the PDGA sanctioning and $5 fees for the SNPC, etc.

after that, then divide the left over funds according to the current ratio used i.e. however many ams put in, they get that % of the left over funds. then, you implement the JK proposal or whatever the SN Board O'Scum decides.
Re: Suggestions for SNAC Guidelines
November 01, 2005 12:06PM
Boy for a minute there I thought you where gone! roflmao
Sounds interesting. Where is the rest cause, I know you been doing something other than licking stamps?



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 11/01/2005 12:22PM by Tax Man.
Anonymous User
Re: Suggestions for SNAC Guidelines
November 01, 2005 12:09PM
the rest of what? i'll be gone as soon as the Board O'Scum finalizes its plan, which means i'll be around for another couple of years at this rate!


blblblblblblblblbllblbbllblblblbbl!
Re: Suggestions for SNAC Guidelines
November 01, 2005 06:35PM
probably licking toads :)
Re: Suggestions for SNAC Guidelines
November 01, 2005 07:27PM
Be carefull or you will become the PDGA or worse.

Duke of Disc Golf A-Number 1
[daffyshirts.com]
Re: Suggestions for SNAC Guidelines
November 02, 2005 10:13AM
Chris - the registration fee for the am championship for the last 3 years has been $45 and I don't see why that would change. The Pro fees last year were $75 for pro open and masters and $65 for pro women and grandmasters.

An agreed upon price list for discs used as prizes at the championship is a must, this is to ensure that the players aren't paying more than a fair price because as you stated the vouchers used whether it's a club/city/vendor providing them have the players that use them at a disadvantage. As for vendors that are just selling, we shouldn't be in the business of regulating them because at that point it's the buyer's choice whether to buy an item or not. I also think that SN dollars are something that is not in the immediate future. I think that the vendors certainly can get together and agree to accept each others "currency". I know in Mobile that for a couple years Jim Orum would accept Joe Bucks and Joe Sherrod would accept Sky Bucks.


Psycho - I don't see the season moving anytime soon or the need to move it. I know that August and September are hot in regards to the championships but all summer tournaments are hot.


Mikey - I think an alternate to your suggestion could be of the $2 Sn fees, $1.75 could go back to the championships and the other .25 cents could be used for the stuff you were discussing. Last year there were 5760 players in all the tournaments by taking .25 cents from each $2 that would have generated $1440 for the SN to use for expenses, banners, advertising, pdga fees, etc.

Other opinions, comments...

John k
Re: Suggestions for SNAC Guidelines
November 02, 2005 10:28AM
I like that last one!
Re: Suggestions for SNAC Guidelines
November 02, 2005 10:51AM
I still believe a vendor list with agreed prices for like items at the Am Champs. is a GOOD idea...certainly would have diffused the "air" of the last one....

remember, sometimes it is the APPEARANCE of impropriety that causes great knashing of teeth.....imho.....Griff

Griff
Anonymous User
Re: Suggestions for SNAC Guidelines
November 02, 2005 10:54AM
JK thanks for working on this. i'm getting tired of posting, and hope i'll be able to shut the F up, as soon as the Board O'Scum puts the plan down and votes it in.

i'm in agreement that it would be beneficial for the SN to buy the prizes for the SNAC & SNDC, in bulk. i think if the SN works with manufacturers and has 7-10 grand to spend, you should be able to get a great deal. i mean, if the SNC's are done right, the SNAC should be in the top 3 am tournaments of the year and i'm certain one or two manufacturers will work with the SN and sponsor the SNAC big time. i'd volunteer to do that but, let's face it, i'm more of a Mr.Stick type as opposed to a Mr. Carrot. however if you need some advice on how to get a foot in the door, i may be of some small service.

so, if the SN buys the prizes and ships them to the SNAC/SNDC hosts, these hosts will have plenty of leeway to put on a great show. at the SNAC, 144 players at $45 a head in entry fees equals $6480, to purchase player t-shirts, gatorade, free lunches both days, trophies, new tires for Jim, shelter/hall rental, etc. if the host of the SNAC has any clue on how to run a tournament, there will even be some left over, which the club can keep. i've never had a problem with the club keeping anything, if they run a good tournament that is. and a good tournament means players not having to pay extra for anything, there is no excuse for charging players for food at the SNAC after they've donated so much over the course of the year, and there better be plenty plenty cold beverages to drink in the middle of august.

i still haven't seen anything in writing on the bag tags. where is that money going? should be 100% to the SNPC as Jim promised many years ago, in my humble opinion.
Re: Suggestions for SNAC Guidelines
November 02, 2005 10:57AM
John,

I like the idea of using some portion of AM fees to promote the sport and the SN series.

Advertising in DGWN perhaps?

Funding of some public clinics with beginner disc giveaways a few weeks prior to large SN events is another idea.
Re: Suggestions for SNAC Guidelines
November 02, 2005 11:00AM
Why not make the sn fee 3 dollars,and use the dollar for expenses, banners, advertising, pdga fees, etc.the most important part would be the extra money to promote the sport,i wouldnt mind paying an extra dollar per event if i knew it was to promote the sport.everythingelse has gone up over the last couple years.1 extra dollar would not be drastic.


"i am pure EVIL,now give me your funds"
creator of the most popular thread on the S.N.forums of all time
"Screw your Friggin Points"
PAID FOR BY THE FRIENDS AND SUPPORTERS OF THE GregOsnose "Sandbaggers, help the sport, help yourself - move up."
[profiles.yahoo.com]
Re: Suggestions for SNAC Guidelines
November 02, 2005 11:18AM
Nose, you are starting to scare me with some good posts:] SPONSORSHIP is the KEY!$!$!$!$
Anonymous User
Re: Suggestions for SNAC Guidelines
November 02, 2005 11:39AM
nose, that's a horrible idea, only a nose would want to waste more funds. if the SN is "all about fun" as Jim O claims, you should lower the fee to $1 a player.
Re: Suggestions for SNAC Guidelines
November 02, 2005 12:06PM
sorry guys,when people talk about funds i lose my mind.1 dollar,lawd,i just passed out and had a nose attack.


"i am pure EVIL,now give me your funds"
creator of the most popular thread on the S.N.forums of all time
"Screw your Friggin Points"
PAID FOR BY THE FRIENDS AND SUPPORTERS OF THE GregOsnose "Sandbaggers, help the sport, help yourself - move up."
[profiles.yahoo.com]
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