I AM CONCERNED ABOUT THE POINTS SYSTEM FOR THE LADIES. SOME WOMEN ARE RECIEVING POINTS FOR DOUBLES TOURNEY WHEN THEY ARE PLAYING IN THE MENS DIVISION. I WAS INFORMED THAT YOU MAY ONLY RECIEVE POINTS FOR YOUR DIVISION WHEN YOU PLAY IN THAT DIVISION. THE POINTS SYSTEM ARLEADY GIVES AN UNFAIR ADVANTAGE FOR THOSE TOURNEY WHORES. HOWEVER IT IS REALLY SCREWY THAT WOMEN ARE RECIEVING POINTS IN THE WOMEN AM DIVISION WHEN THEY ARE PLAYING DOUBLES WITH THEIR BOYFRIEND OR HUSBAND!!! THIS IS A CONCERN BECAUSE THE WOMEN RECIEVING THESE UNFAIR POINTS ARE LEADERS IN THE POINTS SYSTEM!!!
Let me start off by saying I actually agree with you. I don't necessarily agree with the tone that you said it, but I do agree with you.
Points should be given in the division played.
If you look closer at my stats I actually have 9 points in Advanced Men from when I play doubles with Jeff. The only "un-earned" Women's points I have from playing with a male doubles partner are the 3 I got when we offered a mixed division at our last Lake Lowndes tournament.
In a similar vein I have been complaining for a while now that all non-pro women's points are lumped into the Advanced Women's category. You have 38 points in a division that is titled "Advanced Women", but I'm willing to put money down that you have never played in a single tournament as an Advanced Woman. Those of us that have could make a complaint similar to yours against every woman that is on the Advanced Women's points list that hasn't actually played in a tournament as an Advanced Woman.
Until recently there really was not a distinction between amateur women points and advanced women points. I agree that if a tournament offers advanced women and amateur women that it should be separate. I do not think though that they will do that because there are only a few tournaments and women who play those different divisions.
Maybe the sport is growing with more women coming to tournaments and there will in the future be some consistency to having the two divisions but it is almost like what is going on with the Advanced Master division and the Amateur Master division also.
I only wish I could be a tournament whore. What a life. . . travel and a different course every weekend. Don't hate the player, hate the game. ha ha ha. candy- aspiring tournament whore. I guess I will have to wait till my kids grow up to live that dream.
I would say that the amateur women's divisions are a much bigger problem than the am/adv masters. I see a lot of int masters that could play reasonbly well in int men, but the women's game is very spread out. The main problem is the lack of numbers. There are so few players that one or two tend to stick out.
If you look at the scores there are 5 or so pro women in the entire SN area, with another couple who are playing pro because people pressured them due to a lack of real pro competition in their area. There are then probably 5 or 6 ADV women (they shoot 5-10 shots per round less than the pros) and maybe 10-15 am women (they shoot 5-15 strokes worse than the adv). When the SN only offers one division at the am championships, feelings are bound to fray.
What are the better am women to do if an adv div is not offered? If they play Pro instead of am and no other pro women show up (happens a lot) then they look a lot better on paper than they are. This causes problems when they play in PDGA tournaments like Atlanta, Bowling Green, and Huntsville where there are legitimate adv players and where they would be blown off the course by the pro women. They could play am men (as Karen and Marla occasionally do). If they do, they get treated like dirt in most cases and are resented by the men. Or they could play am women and feel bad about beating everyone else in their division by 20-30 shots thereby discouraging growth.
How does the SN change things? First of all they should recognize the ADV women's division at the championships. Secondly, we have to figure out ways to increase female participation in local events. This will build fields and add to the ADV division. The one thing that isn't needed is the women's division turning on itself as the men's divisions have.
I wholeheartedly agree with what you're saying. People need to stop whining and complaining about getting beat by folks who are better than they are. Practice! Beef up your game! Than come back and show those so-called baggers how to play. @#$%& does absolutely nothing for your game. Some of my favorite tourneys have ended disastrously - I've finished last many a time. Sure, it's fun to win. But I can't count how many tournaments I've entered against women who are far better than me. I HOPE to win, but I'm a realist... I play to have fun. To meet new folks. To make friends with the same interests as me. If you're one of those folks who can't stand to lose, start winning. I mean, if you win just 'cause you've bullied all your true competition into a higher division - did you really win? Or did you simply complain until you got your way?
LOOK NO ONE UNDERSTANDS WHAT I WAS TRYING TO CONVEY. FIRST OF ALL I WAS NOT CALLING YOU A TOURNEY WHORE JUDY! I WAS SIMPLY SAYING THAT THE POINTS SYSTEM IS ALREADY UNFAIR. NOR DID I BRING UP ADV. WOMEN AND AM WOMEN'S POINTS BEING LUMPED TOGETHER. ALL I STATED WAS THAT IT IS TOTALLY AGAINST SNDG RULES TO GET POINTS IN ONE DIVISION WHEN PLAYING IN ANOTHER. MY TONE WAS NOT HARSH. AND I AM NOT TRYING TO BULLY "MY COMPETITION" INTO ANOTHER DIVISION. I AM READY AND WILLING TO COMPETE AGAINST THOSE WHO ARE BETTER THAN ME. HOWEVER MY COMPLAINT IS AGAINST RULES BEING BROKEN. I KNOW AND HAVE PLAYED WITH WOMEN WHO ARE STICKLERS FOR THE RULES ON THE COURSE WELL ALL I AM SAYING IS WE SHOULD FOLLOW THEM OFF THE COURSE. AND LET THE TOP 5 SNDG GIRLS REALLY BE THE TOP AND NOT HAVE POINTS FROM OTHER DIVISIONS HELPING THEIR SCORES!!!
Skye, being the TD of the tourney in which you are finding such egregious fault, what division would YOU give the participants in the "Mixed Doubles" division their points in? We had 3 guys play in the division, 1 true Am Man, 1 true Advanced Man, and one player who was eligible in either Advanced or Open. Of the 3 women all have always signed up for Advanced Women when it is offerred but are usually forced to play Am Women by a lack of interest in an Adv Women division.
It was NEVER announced nor played as a MENS division, it was ALWAYS a Mixed Doubles division. So now where would you put those points? If you give them all Open, Advanced Men, or Am Men points then 5 of those players have a severe gripe if they are interested in points. If you split the points and give the women their points in the division they usually play and the men the points in the division they play (in this case all 3 men got their points in Advanced Men and they got over it) then atleast everyone got some relevant points out of the event.
Skye, none of the players in this division asked for the points to be awarded this way, and none of them knew they were going to be awarded this way. This was 100% my idea to request that points be awarded this way. Blame me not them.
On a personal note if you end up losing to one of these 3 girls by less than 3 points I'll personally get a disc with your name on it engraved at the end of the year. I can't speak for Marla or Shannon but Judy atleast doesn't care about the points competition and anyone who looks at the number of tourneys that she has played for non-Adv/Am Women points would immediately realize this.
Rules are made for a reason, to govern the actions of the populace in a given situation. Unfortunately NO rule is perfect nor can ANY rule be applied in 100% of all situations, therefore blind adherence to the rules is, in my opinion, worse than complete disregard of the rules. I feel I was perfectly valid in requesting an exception to the rule.
And for the record I also CLEARLY took it as you calling my wife a tourney whore.
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 03/27/2006 01:20PM by cajundop.
> ALL I STATED WAS THAT IT IS TOTALLY
> AGAINST SNDG RULES TO GET POINTS IN ONE DIVISION
> WHEN PLAYING IN ANOTHER.
And I am in total agreement, that's why I mentioned the lumping of Advanced and Am Women's points.
> NOR DID I BRING UP ADV. WOMEN AND AM WOMEN'S
> POINTS BEING LUMPED TOGETHER.
But you did when you made the general statement about people getting points in the incorrect division.
> MY TONE WAS NOT HARSH.
I think part of what is making the tone of your posts read harsh is that traditionally people type in all caps when they are yelling. Well that and coming up with the phrase Tournament Whore. (Which personally I think is hilarious, I'm telling everyone I know that I'm a Tourney Whore!)
> AND I AM NOT TRYING TO BULLY "MY COMPETITION" INTO
> ANOTHER DIVISION.
Not my words so that comment must be for someone else.
> LOOK NO ONE UNDERSTANDS WHAT I WAS TRYING TO CONVEY.
I do. You saw what you feel is a wrong and you want it righted. I try to do the same thing and have respect for you for stepping up and calling it out. I just don't know what the best solution for this issue is because what you are pointing out was a one time event. Maybe someone else does.
Thanks for bringing the women's forum back to life. It had gotten pretty dead over here.
I apologize for the "bully my competition" comment... I didn't mean it to be directed at you, though now that I've reread some of the posts it DOES seem like I'm picking on you. I'm sorry. I've heard many chicks (and guys) gripe about the better players and how they need to move up. (Hence the ever-captivating SBOTW thread!) Can't we all just get over it? That said, I agree with what you're saying about the mixed doubles points getting divvied up to help the player's points ratings. I played doubles the other day with Stephen Heaps and we creamed the other two teams (R.J. Soto/Ransom Jones & Jason Loughlin/I'll-be-@#$%&-if-I-can-remember). Sure, we took my disc a few times, but for the most part, he carried me. Say we were playing a tourney and we beat 10 other teams... that's 12 points I'd get. 12 points in the women's division is alot. If there's going to be a mixed doubles division, with players of such varying skill levels (as Jeff pointed out above) then points simply shouldn't be awarded. If you choose to play mixed doubles in the name of fun, then you won't care if you don't get points, will you? I've poked around a bit, and though I may be wrong, I haven't come across a PDGA sanctioned 'mixed doubles' category anywhere. It has alot of potential to cause drama in its unfairness. Also, in the name of fairness, I'd like to address a rule that is constantly being broken in SN tourneys that I think should be enforced.
804.06 Grouping and Sectioning
A. Professional and Amateur players should not be grouped together, and all players from different divisions shall be segregated from each other during play as much as practicable.
For those of us who don't really 'get' that rule, here's the explanation in simpler terms from the PDGA site:
***QUESTION:Can a TD put players from different divisions in the same group?***
***ANSWER:Only if absolutely necessary per 804.06; a TD must strive to place players into groups with players from the same division insofar as is possible. That is especially true with regard to the border between pro and am divisions. Pros should play with pros, and ams should play with ams.
A TD may need to mix divisions in order to fill a group, because divisions are rarely evenly divisible by the group size. That is fine. (For example, there may be three senior grandmasters and two women masters at a tournament with groups of five; they may be placed within the same group.)***
Why is this such a big deal? C-H-E-A-T-I-N-G! Lucky for me, my guy plays in the Am Mens division and can help me keep an eye on my competition when they're playing in his group. But what if they're not? Do I trust the fellas to keep an eye on the other Am Women? Nope-itty nope nope nope. And they DO cheat! I've caught someone trying to cheat at nearly EVERY event I've been to! And I've noticed that when I'm in a group of 2 Am Men, myself (Am Wmn) and a novice... the Am Men are constantly policing each other... keeping up with their competitor's scores, carefully checking possible OB lies, etc. But if the novice guy 'forgets' that missed putt and reports a four when he really got a five, I'm the one to speak up. I think this rule is a much bigger deal than the doubles spiff, as I'd much rather win individual tourneys vs. being ranked 2nd or 3rd in points at the end of the year.
I'm so glad you had the guts to speak up, Skye. These items DO need to be addressed, and I like hearing what others have to say. (But lose the caps, girl! :) I feel like you're SHOUTING!) While speaking out on the forum gets ideas out and maybe relieves a little stress, it doesn't remedy the situation. Officials need to be made aware of potentially unfair practices. I'm especially concerned about the grouping rule... I just happened to stumble upon it tonight and I think it's a very important rule.
And I second Judy on the thanks... I've got a reason to check out the women's side o'the forum again! Yay!
this has been made into a bigger deal than it was meant. my first post was to bring attention to a problem in the points system. i am sorry if people felt personally attacked. but if you go back to my first post it does not mention names or call any one person a "tourney whore". i am glad you find it so funny though. however the point was to bring attention to what was happening in the points system. judy, i liked your point about the adv women and am women being lumped together but that is not what i was talking about. now that it is in the air women are talking about it and that is great!! i think some took it too personal. i would never personally attack another person verbally or physically. that is not my nature. the way you have turned one posting into this enormous personal attack shows your nature. i loved that jeff jumped in and posted that long winded blah blah blah post taking judy's side. however if Judy does not care about points so much then why turn that one post into such a big deal. and thanks jeff for saying you'd get a disc with my name on it if i get beat by 3 points, however i think that comment is smart ass and ridiculous. i'll take care of myself. i was just bringing up something that had happened. and how the points system is already unfair. never calling judy a tourney whore. just saying that it is something that happens. this will be my last post on this matter so go ahead and take this as a chance to personally attack me some more.
to you other ladies, i hope that nothing was taken the wrong way to any of you. i was only addressing a matter i thought should be looked at by other women. the guys address issues and discuss things without making it personal attacks. i was not calling ANYONE a tourney whore it is just a figure of speech i use for those who play a lot of tournaments for points. hell this season i guess i am one. i hate that this got blown up into a big deal. i am just an active member in the sndg and encourage healthy discussion between women. the women's division will never be better without us as women taking an active stand.
ps sorry i always type in caps didn't mean for it to come across as shouting.
If you are so worried about points, then study the tournament results and go to the tourneys that traditionally have a larger women's turnout, since you can't be a tourney whore.***You should be jealous of their will to make it to every possible tournament,instead of how many points they're getting for playing.
Someone made a real good point that, technically you have been assigned adv. women's points for every tournament, and I doubt you signed up as advanced in any of your 10 posted tourneys, so if anyone should complain about points, it's
the women who have been signing up for advanced and paying the extra 5 or 10 bucks to enter and being lumped together with Ams. Think about it, these women might have 2 or 3 girls who enter Adv. - so they might get 3 or 4 points
at a tourney, and maybe 6 or 7 am women played that tourney - the top half of the am women would receive more points in the "Adv. Women category" than the actual advanced women who played the same tourney. Is that fair?
Not trying to kick you while your down or jump on the bash-wagon, but next time, choose your words more carefully - I seriously doubt guys would have taken as much offense to the word WHORE as the ladies did - and believe me, THEY DID!! Good luck, and I hope the ladies still talk to you at the next tourney.Play Harder!!!!!
I thought the term "tournament whore" was pretty funny myself. I just got a personalized tag yesterday and today I am kicking myself. ..it could have been "DISCHO". @#$%&. ha ha ha. I crack myself up.
got a call from a buddy saying go read the women's forum. So I did and as I made it to this thread . being very entertained I might add, something about women saying whore anyway... As I was saying reading the thread who comes up behind me and sees the words "tournament whore" yes my wife. She said is this why you started playing tournaments again? I guess thats what I get for reading the "womens forum"