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Using the score to help with divisions.
February 11, 2008 08:43PM
I am going to try and regulate divisional play using some type of criteria at the Windy Hills Open. For example, I am going to try and keep someone who has won 3 novice tournaments from playing novice again. I think we have had novice players for the last couple of years who should not be playing novice. I was considering using some formula with the SN score as a component. Do you guys have any recommendations or problems with this scenario?

Shane

Transparency of information breeds self correcting behavior!
Re: Using the score to help with divisions.
February 12, 2008 07:27AM
shane if this person has won 3 novice tournaments then there is your formula; i would think if he played 3 novice tournaments much less win he or she should move on.now for the rest of the divisions "good luck"
Re: Using the score to help with divisions.
February 12, 2008 09:29AM
I thought it was kind of an unwritten rule, at least it is up north, that once a person has been playing a year (children not included) they had to move out of novice and up into intermediate. Am I mistaken?

Forever BOB
WDGA #106
Re: Using the score to help with divisions.
February 12, 2008 03:23PM
Score is subjective to the division I think. At least, it is in terms of the number of players in a division. Divisions with a lot of players at events will have higher scores due to points being a factor in score.

Brian Moon
SNDG Webmaster
Re: Using the score to help with divisions.
February 12, 2008 06:25PM
Brian,

You are definitely one of the people I was hoping to hear from. What if I chose the score of 30 for all non age-protected players and said that if you have a score of 30 or more you move up to the next division. Looking at the Intermediate and Advanced division, would that help to stop the sandbagging issue?

Shane

Transparency of information breeds self correcting behavior!
Re: Using the score to help with divisions.
February 12, 2008 06:36PM
Shane, how do you rectify such a division requirement against the existence of, and the desire by a player to participate in, a seasonal points race?


Also the number 30 seems rather arbitrary and artificially rounded. What are your justifications for that number?

Jeff H
Re: Using the score to help with divisions.
February 12, 2008 08:11PM
A) I guess unfortunately, this is another time where I agree with the PDGA effort using ratings. Without a handicap system that applies across different courses, ratings seem to be the only way to place people in divisions. As far as point races, my personal feeling is that they should be limited to the Open Men and Open Women divisions, with possibly age-protected divisions being the exception. A points race for a division which rewards people for not having enough time, talent, desire, etc to reach the highest competitive division makes no sense to me.

B) I chose the number 30 after running through a few calculations of various scenarios for tournament results. Brian could probably generate all of the possible ways to get that score easier than I did. I will say that I used a maximum of 40 tournaments possible played from the start of the SN until the WHO. That is definitely an arbitrary number, but I can't see how someone could play more in that time interval.

Shane

Transparency of information breeds self correcting behavior!
Re: Using the score to help with divisions.
February 13, 2008 10:24AM
problem is, as Jeff suggested, many of our amatuer players are interested in the points race...playing am worlds....etc.

Kinda hard to "force" up a player given they have a right to complete the season in their division....imho...

I agree, however, wholeheartedly on your moving up the novice--as my understanding was that one could only really play novice once as thereafter you are no longer a novice but an AM....that was the way it was "back in the day"....

JR's are age protected...perhaps the novice should move to there if they are afraid of Ams..imho...

Griff
Re: Using the score to help with divisions.
February 13, 2008 12:22PM
The problem with the novice division is that now with the reorganization of the Amateur divisions in the PDGA ranks, Novice is a legitimate, competitive division now. In fact, at a recent PDGA Ice Bowl in Alabama, Marla Lenox, played Men's novice due to the lack of female competition, and we all know Marla is far from a Novice level player by the definition that most of us use for novice. But Marla was perfectly correct in playing in the novice division under current PDGA rules.

Jeff H
Re: Using the score to help with divisions.
February 13, 2008 02:20PM
Well, there is something wonky in the stats. None of the Novice players have points. I am not sure what is going on there.

You can't really force someone to move into a Pro division. If they want to keep play for plastic forever, there is not much you can do. It could be that they don't want to pay the extra $20 per event. I know I don't.

The only way to get a more accurate rating would be to know that everyone played the same course layout and then apply a score system across all players at an event. I have given a lot of thought to this. But, I would have to know what players played what courses/layouts/tees, etc. just like the PDGA does.

Brian Moon
SNDG Webmaster
Re: Using the score to help with divisions.
February 13, 2008 09:21PM
Brian,

I agree that I can't force someone to play into a pro division. I guess the question is can I refuse to allow them to play in an Amateur division. My answer is that as long as I advertise ahead of time, I can do what I want, and the SN can decide to sanction me or not. With that being said, I don't want to blindside the SN board so that is the reason I am posting here.

I know that sounded really harsh, but I have a real problem with people winning tournament after tournament and not moving up. I mean 7 or more wins in a division should be enough. I hate to work hard to raise money for baskets for 1st and help someone build their own private course, because they don't want to move up. I know that I am just a tournament director, but I am the one working hard every year trying to raise extra to give to everyone. I give shirts, food, CTP's, out every year instead of just adding to the pro purse. Maybe if I want people to move up I should fatten the pro purse, and just let the other divisions play for their own entries?

Shane

Transparency of information breeds self correcting behavior!
Re: Using the score to help with divisions.
February 14, 2008 09:47AM
Quote

Similar to Fish's solution, pay the top three Am's with a trophy and one disc.

TD's could include a cheap disc for all Am entries and still keep their registration fee's fairly low. All Am's get something and there's no reason to bag now unless you're working on your trophy case. Bagger's in the Am divisions usually plastic-out and start selling their awards anyway.

Pay Advanced in plastic and merchandise and the Pro's in cash as normal.

It would truly make the TD's job simplier as well.

from this thread: [www.sndg.org]

DG has always paid Am's heavy in plastic to keep the "up n' coming" ranks interested and involved. Never quite understood this. Other sports pay out cheap trophies and the Am's play more for the enjoyment of competition and winning braggin' rights than merchandise. I mean, an Am is an Am, right? Don't pay out so much and they'll move up! I know many oppose this idea but I just think that if the carrot keeps getting a little larger with each division, then the skilled players are enticed to go there. Keep rewarding them and there's no reason to go higher.

[tupelodiscgolf.com]



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 02/14/2008 10:15AM by Grayson Robbins.
Re: Using the score to help with divisions.
February 14, 2008 10:17AM
thanx, Jeff...I really had no idea the PDGA made Novice a competitive division--heck, it never has been one in the SN--that would explain no points tracking...

I can also see Shane's points about the basket hoarding...BUT couldn't we develop a rule that would state if an individual had gotten a basket anytime in say the last 2 years then the basket goes to the next in line? Kinda like ya'll do the USDGC qualifier stuff?

It would be relatively easy to keep a list on this site tracking who has won baskets. I would add, when I am speaking of baskets I am talking about the REAL ones--not the travelers, etc.

This would also likely cause the folks hanging out multiple years for baskets to move up....

just a thought....

Griff
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