I would like to see the board step up and put some teeth into a policy that will provide bans of players disqualified from play during any SN tournament (as per section C of PDGA Rule 804.05).

Here is the way PDGA rule 804.05 reads:

A. A player shall be disqualified by the director for meeting any of the necessary conditions of disqualification as set forth in the rules, or for any of the following:
(1) Unsportsmanlike conduct, such as; loud cursing, throwing things in anger (other than discs in play), or overt rudeness to anyone present
(2) Willful and overt destruction or abuse of plant life, course hardware, or any other property considered part of the disc golf course or the park.
(3) Cheating: a willful attempt to circumvent the rules of play.
(4) Activities which are in violation of the law or park regulation or disc golf course rule, including the illegal consumption of drugs or alcohol. Directors are granted the discretion to disqualify a player based on the severity of the offending conduct. An official warning of disqualification may be issued by a director where appropriate.

B. Disqualified players shall forfeit any prize money and shall not receive a refund of entry fees.

C. A player in violation of any section under 804.05 A is also subject to suspension from the PDGA Tour. Suspension from the PDGA Tour may only be assigned by the PDGA Commissioner. A player may appeal his or her suspension to the PDGA Board of Directors. The determination to suspend, and the length of the suspension, shall be based on the severity of the action and the extent to which the player may have committed repeated violations.
------

Basically the way I read the rule, a TD has only two options when confronted with evidence that a player has violated any of four listed offenses ... he or she can disqualify the player(s) or they can issue a warning of disqualification.

I propose the board treat these two options the same way a yellow and red card are treated in soccer.

Any player who is disqualified from a SN event (red card) is banned from SN tournaments for a period of three months. Any player disqualified a second time (regardless of what season it took place in) is banned for the rest of the current season and becomes ineligible to compete in any of the championships. Any player disqualified a third time is banned for life, subject to reinstatement only by appeal to the SN Board after a period of at least one year from the effective date of the lifetime ban.

Two warnings of disqualification (yellow card) will be treated as if it was one disqualification (red card).

I think it is important somewhere in the language of any SN Rule, to define what is meant by "tournament." There is a perception among players that as long as something doesn't happen during a round, then it isn't part of the tournament. I think careful attention should be paid to what the board defines as "The Tournament." I would suggest that language be adopted to incorporate a working definition something along the lines of;

The phrase "during the tournament" will be construed to include ALL tournament-related activities at the tournament site beginning two hours before the start of the first round and ending at the conclusion of the awards ceremony AND all personal activities by registered players at the tournament site beginning with registration and ending at the conclusion of the awards ceremony.

------

Please let me know if I can elaborate on either the specifics of this proposal or the reason I feel it is crucial. Please also let me know if this proposal will be considered by the SN Board and, if so, what the outcome is.

Thanks.

Chris, how do you propose to enforce this? This rule STILL relies on players "turning in" rule breakers, which right now, just doesn't happen.

How do you propose we disseminate the list of who is yellow carded or red carded? There is no way we can post that information on a public forum or website.

Beyond that, how do we get tournament directors to enforce this rule?

What do we do for TD's that do not enforce this rule, both intentionally or unintentionally?

The board has discussed this problem, in detail, and while I personally did not like the direction that the discussion went, we all agreed that the ultimate source of any change in the viewpoint of drugs in disc golf HAS to start with the players themselves.

If you want the board to consider this sort of idea more seriously, produce some concrete implementation ideas and less conceptual ideas.


Jeff H

Jeff H

Funny how people do leap to conclusions ... and if model disc golfer Bluff Magee is on that side of the issue, I am proud to be on this side

The primary issue is to have the rule. Implementation/enforcement is by far a secondary issue.

I am not asking the Southern National Board to find a way to stop course destruction or cheating or unsportsmanlike conduct or even illegal consumption of alcohol or drugs DURING A TOURNAMENT ... that is up to the players (like me for one) and the tournament directors (like me for one). What I am asking is that the Southern National Board step up and say as a body "We will not tolerate players who violate ANY PART of 804.05 and here is our policy."

It WOULD still rely on players (like me) turning in the rule breakers ... and it would spell out specifically what happens to those rule breakers. Tournament directors really don't have many options. They only have one choice to make and two specific courses of action.

If the tournament director considers the player (like me) who turns someone in credible, he must either disqualify or warn of disqualification the player(s) who transgressed Rule 804.05. If he doesn't consider the player (like me) who turns someone in credible than that player (like me) is in violation of 804.05 - specifically "a willful attempt to circumvent the rules of play" ... even unsportsmanlike conduct. The TD then has the same two options.

Why can't that information be posted on a public forum? Post it here. No where in my proposed rule do I differentiate between the four specific criteria mentioned in 804.05. All the general public (i.e. visitors to this forum) has to know is that the player was either disqualified or received a warning of disqualification ... not what the specific infraction was.

You are all agreed that the "ultimate source of any change ... HAS to start with the players" ... well here I am, as a player, asking the board of the Southern National Tournament Series to backstop my personal effort to effect this change.

If the Board will consider installing this rule, I have a specific strategy for implementation I will be happy to share with the Board.

Don't think of this as specifically a "drug" policy. What if there was a "player" who was responsible for destruction of the course wherever they went? What if you had someone who habitually cheated on the scorecards or had a nasty habit of cussing out other park users who wandered innocently onto the course ... you can be darned there are plenty of players who would report that kind of transgression to the TD ... and wouldn't it be nice to be able to ban someone who had done it twice at two different tournament from playing in the championships and banning someone who had done it three times from playing in SN tournaments ever again?

Of course, I may be a bit subjective here, but I don't see that this is even a controversial issue meriting much debate. How could the board NOT want to have a policy in place to deal with players who habitually break the most serious rules of the game?



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 03/10/2008 04:58PM by chris lasonde.

Chris,

I totally agree with your estimation. I think that this would be great for TDs to have a uniform policy that applies to all of these situations. I know that if I disqualify someone for intentional destruction of property, I would like a means of disseminating that information to everyone else concerning the DQ. Would the ban occur for the same infraction or could it be different actions. In other words, could a red card for hitting another player, and then a red card for knocking down a tee sign result in a ban, or does the player have to commit the same sin twice?

Shane

Transparency of information breeds self correcting behavior!

maybe, just maybe, i lept to conclusions when you named this thread "illegal substance during competition". how could i not have known you were trying to start a discipline policy for treebreakers?

backpedal some more, hypocrite. we see right through your feline nazi uniform.

i'm proud to be on the correct side of this issue, namely, the side with the sane people.

The way I see it Chris is that rule 804.05 is in effect at ALL SN events. As the board has stated many times, we play by the PDGA rule book. As for enforcement by the SNBOD, I'm waiting on a TD DQ someone and turn them in to us.

If you want us to have written standards for when this happens, I will be happy to discuss it at the next meeting.

Josh

Until then Chris will just keep posting this topic on the forum so he can give sponsors the impression that we're all a bunch of drug abusers.

Feminine Nazis do that sort of thing all the time. Backfires every time too. Good job, feminine nazi!

Yes, Josh, I do.
Yes, BM, I will.

Chris, Mikey is right, the title of this thread automatically drives all thoughts of "illegal activities" to drug use in disc golf. You're the one who entitled this thread Illegal substance during competition. It was not a jump to conclusion, it was simply reading everything on the page.

So just so I understand, we have rules in place that say if you do certain things, and it is reported to them, a TD is required to warn you and has every right to DQ you. We all agree that rule is already in place and, in theory, enforced at ALL SN events. Even though in place, I have YET to hear of a SINGLE instance where this rule has been enacted but you want us to steepen the penalties of this yet unenacted rule? Honestly, I see your rule as more LIKELY to lessen the chance of this rule being enacted if a TD knows that their decision could prevent another player (potentially even their competition at a future event) from playing for the next 3 months.

As for your statement that "The primary issue is to have the rule. Implementation/enforcement is by far a secondary issue." I couldn't disagree more. I believe the phrase "the devil is in the details" is very apt here. A rule that is unenforcable or unimplementable is just plain silly. It is that exact kind of rule that has gotten us, time and again, into the problems we are having with the Am Championships accounting. Unenforceable rules are, in my opinion, worse than no rule at all.

Again, what sort of penalties are there for TD's who ignore this rule? What about an upstanding and honest player who might fall into a rule violation every 5 years? Your rule of 2 yellows = 1 red would DQ that player for 3 months. Chris that rule, strictly applied, would get practically all disc golfers. I know you and I both have dropped a curse word after a chained out putt.


And you are right, you are a player asking the board to take a stand. I agree with Josh, I'll be happy to discuss this again, but I'll tell you now, some board members just don't see drug use as a problem in disc golf, and, try as I might, they think cursing is a bigger problem right now than drug use.

Jeff H

If assume by "Mikey," you are referring to the coward Bluff Magee. I concede the point. This is about drugs. It is, however, also about the other three violations in 804.05.

Read the rule again. I am asking the SN Board to give the Series a version of Section C of that rule. It doesn't have to read like my proposal. It can read like theirs for all I care. Let's turn it on it's head and ask instead how does the SN Board intend to deal with multiple violations by a single player of PDGA Rule 804.05.

Read the rule again. The TD really doesn't have an option about enforcement. If the TD is confronted with a player complaining that another player violated 804.05 they MUST enforce. They can warn or DQ the player(s) accused of violating the rule or they can warn or DQ the player who falsely accused them.

Illegal drug use is a problem in disc golf. It is against the rules. How can that not be a problem? I can understand why "some board members" don't see it as an issue but could you ask them to explain why the framers of that rule thought it might just be necessary to include it as one of the four categories of the most important rules in the sport.

Again, I am not asking the board to judge what is and isn't "a problem." Rules violations are always a problem. I am asking them to go on record with a SN version of 804.05(C).

Chris:

I agree that illegal drugs not only in disc golf but all sports is a problem; hell it's a huge problem in our society. How do we control it? WOW!!! thats a very good question; so having said that i can only tell you what we will and have done here at blue angel; First of all if we even suspect someone using illegal drugs our first step is to call security and as you well know if your on fed. property they have every rite to search not only you but the vehicle you are driving and anyone riding in it; there was a report of the smell of pot out here during a tournament and thats exactly what happened; i will say that no one was caught but some had worried looks; Chris i don't know if there is an answer other than drug testing and that takes $$$$$$; so your correct in saying that if you do indeed love this sport then you and only you as an individual have a duty to report any miss use; and i also don't give a @#$%& what each individual cares to do in there own homes ; or whatever but coming on our property with illegal drugs is deffinetly puting your freedom into jepordy; In conclussion i love this sport that i found or it found me 10 + years ago and i will do everything i can to make sure it is steared in the rite direction; and heres hoping you and i get to play many many more rounds of golf togeather.

GO ARMY BEAT NAVY!!!! i didn't say that; p.s. don't know if you heard but i am retiring in november.

Mike, I am asking the SN board to give the Tournament Series a version of PDGA Rule 804.05(C)

This is the way the rule reads:

C. A player in violation of any section under 804.05 A is also subject to suspension from the PDGA Tour. Suspension from the PDGA Tour may only be assigned by the PDGA Commissioner. A player may appeal his or her suspension to the PDGA Board of Directors. The determination to suspend, and the length of the suspension, shall be based on the severity of the action and the extent to which the player may have committed repeated violations.

I think we should have a parallel policy for the SN Tour.

chris i agree 100% i think a repeat offender of any rule violation should be suspended untill they are not allowed to play tournaments ever again; but i was also trying to give you my thoughts on the drug thing. when i say never play again what i mean is repeat, repeat repeat, offenders i can see that never happening; i also think the board should be the ones to makethe dissision after listening to all angels of the problem from all involved. I concur we should use that rule period!!!! but we should be very careful and listen.

i got your coward right here...you're the coward who's scared to show his face at tournaments anymore.

i agree with the drugs but the cursing you cant ban someone for i mean tiger woods says fock on tv and they dont ban him from playing

i agree that some rules are stronger than others; case taken; but i would bet you 1000 to 1 that tiger has been talke to about it. but i agree cussing is not as bad as illegal drugs; i just hate for our children to hear the bad lingo.

thats tru also letting one slip is diff but just doing it to do it is not cool

wow!

Chris, I think the world of you as you know. I am curious what your motives are for this thread? I see the writing on the wall but..... It is as Jeff and Josh said it is up to the players to make the right choices/calls.

Like Jeff posted before, he has an off duty officer at his events and if that does not do it, what do you think will???

Look at the POG event, long history of playing DG in a laid back enviroment and it is SOLD OUT! Not defending anyone, just pointing out what the PLAYERS enjoy at events.

If this is what you think will change DG, then I will strongly disagree. Drive over to NO and express your thoughts and be open minded with the overwhelming response you will get. Once again not defending anyone, just keeping it real.

Funny how Tobacco companies and Alchol companies are the number one funders of a DRUG free world. The reason is obvious, they would prefer you use there drugs
which are far more dangerous then the one you are speaking of.

But, to try and make another rule for one that is already in place makes no sense what so ever. Otherwise blow your whistle and see what happens.

IT IS THAT SIMPLE.

Bob, the POG can't be laid back... it's a PDGA event. They better watch their backs, if you know what I mean. ;) rWc897

Quote
Russ3523
Bob, the POG can't be laid back... it's a PDGA event. They better watch their backs, if you know what I mean. ;) rWc897

haha, an org that will not show financials, stop your making me choke.

The Force is strong in the Big Easy and the canals are deep.

Please read the thread more closely, Bob ... I am only asking the board to give us a SN version of section C of 804.05. As it stands now there is no SN policy in place to address anyone who breaks these rules multiple times. Hopefully it will never be an issue, but there is no reason not to add a parallel rule that addresses the situation proactively on our tour as section C does for the PDGA tour.

Bottom line Bob is that I could care less what you or anyone does 99.9% of the time. I will never judge you just as I would hope you don't judge me. BUT ... when disc golfers compete, I want them to observe ALL the rules ... not just the ones that don't conflict with their lifestyle.

The four rules in 804.05 are keystones of disc golf. Collectively, they go to the heart of the spirit of the game. I am sure you have no issue with the first three. If you personally don't like 804.05(4), I would suggest either petitioning the PDGA to remove it or petitioning the SN Board to create an exception so that players in SN tournaments can ignore park regulations, disc golf course rules and the law while competing.

Chris, I am fine with all of them! As previously stated if, no one is saying there is a violation how can there be one?

We both know better but...............................

bob i agree with that; but when the whisle is blown and the t.d. is aware of it and makes the player leave or whatever then what happens???? will it just dissapate into thin air or should there be records kept so that repeat repeat repeat offenders will evintualy go away; my problem with the whole thing is when the t.d. 's act nothing happens after that it's just beating our heads against the wall.

If you attempt to keep records of any kind, much less diseminate them to others, that alledge illegal activities by an induvidual, you are opening your self and the SN organization up for some serious legal action.

Making any such list public could cost people thier jobs, thier spouses, thier standing in the community etc...........Who thinks thier horse is high enough to protect them from the legal and personal ramifications of that?

There is no solution to this dilemma untill T.D.'s start D/Q'ing people, and I seriously doubt that will ever happen.

Why don't you try this instead. Have the party tournaments like the ones where alcohol is served, and is legal in the Park where it takes place. People can come to those and get blitzed if they want to, and it would be OK.

But also have some "Serious" tournaments where everyone knows in advance that drinking and drugs will not be tolerated.

That would give something for everybody to participate in.

Just a thought....................................................

so chris your actually saying that we should be scared to keep records; thats b.s. all venues keep records; im sorry but thats just crazy.

Bob, let's agree not to mince words.

1) I withdrew from COMPETITION solely because it appeared to me that too many players were willing to either tolerate rule breaking or actually break the rules in the name of having fun ... having fun in this case being at least partly predicated on ingesting illegal drugs and/or drinking alcohol in contravention of course/park rules.

2) I have been asked to reconsider by a handful of players, TDs and promoters/organizers who have earned my respect. I have also been asked to stay retired by one player/TD/failed PDGA Board candidate who is afraid that my even raising this issue will give "sponsors the impression we're all a bunch of drug users."

3) In reconsidering I consider it paramount that, as Steve Timm puts it, I am growing "the sport by taking deliberate, thoughtful action every day." I consider the rule I have proposed to the board to be an example of deliberate, thoughtful action.

4) I have heard from numerous other people whom I respect a variety of defenses for the status quo. I will summarize;

Justification A) If no one complains, is anyone really breaking the rule by smoking pot or drinking alcohol where laws/regulations forbid it during a tournament? The answer, of course is "Yes." If player A gets to their disc and it is over the OB line and they kick it back in before anyone else in the group gets there has a rule been broken? If player B writes down the wrong score on purpose and no one catches the mistake, did they cheat? If player C's nearest supporting point is two feet to the side of their marker on every throw and no one says anything about it are they playing by the rules? If all the players in one group throw logs across the fairway of a hole after completing it so no one in the next group can throw a roller, was there a willful attempt to circumvent the rules of play if no one else noticed them doing it?

Justification B) Everyone else is doing it at other tournaments everywhere, why can't we? Well, no, they are not. I'm not. There seem to be a bunch of players in Tallahassee who aren't. I have heard from more than 100 players in SN who applaud my efforts.

Justification C) Here in Southern Nationals things are different. It is really all about fun. Well, no. The second sentence in the Southern National Tournament Series Handbook states; "Tournament play in a Southern National Disc Golf sanctioned event is governed by the Professional Disc Golf Association Rules of Play." ... which last I checked included Rule 804.05 which served as the catalyst for this thread.

Bottom line, if you smoke dope during competition you are in violation of the rules. If no one reports you, you are still in violation of the rules, you just didn't get reported. If you don't want the stigma of being a perpetual rule breaker, then either stop breaking the rules or get the Southern National Board to take the tournament series off the PDGA rule book.

If the board institutes a version of the rule I have requested, I will return to competitive play. If I return to competitive play and a player breaks the rules, I will turn them in. I have reached the end of my patience with rule breakers' disrespect for the sport as a whole and for their fellow competitors who play by ALL the rules.

If the board chooses to ignore the issue and effectively "let sleeping dogs lie," I won't be back.

Either way it won't make my day or break my heart.

Contrary to Mikey's rants I don't want to put barbed wire around the Bogue and set up watchtowers with jackbooted sentries on every hole. I really just want everyone to play by the rules in tournaments ... don't you?



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 03/18/2008 11:17AM by chris lasonde.

well said ; i agree 100% with up holding all rules; and as a board member i will strive to make sure all rules are respeted.

iagree also

Suspensions can be listed online without stating the reasons for the suspension. Only the player and the board need to know why the suspension occured.

Here is the link to the PDGA's suspension/probation page: [www.pdga.com]

The PDGA has taken significant strides toward cleaning things up in the past few years. How they did it was one of the things we discussed this weekend.

Josh

Ok I agree not to mince words!

Secondly, I think we exchanged PM's on the issue being discussed and once again I agree on playing by the rules in tournament play. When and if you come back I look forward to taking some of your money :o]~

Josh, this I gotta hear. They may have gone slightly away from there roots but, I doubt you will find one HOF member that doesn't have a ghost in the closet;o]~