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chris lasonde
I have been in too many groups where I am the only one without my feet on the coffee table, so to speak (good link Josh).

Not sure how others will handle it, but I am going to take my cell phone (ringer off) with me during tournament rounds and take pictures. If the TD won't believe me on the basis of first-hand testimony and photographic evidence, I will ask him to warn or disqualify me based on the same rule ... in other words, I am either telling the truth or I am lying. If I am lying, I am attempting to circumvent the rules - a violation of PDGA 804.05.

lol, does this mean you are back in competitive play???

Actually, the focus is excellent ... roughly the equivalent of a 35 camera so excellent depth of field at the default aperture setting.

But since you seem inclined to raise the bar (so to speak) perhaps we should include a requirement for sworn affidavits (notarized of course) or proper deposing of all witnesses. The accuser and accused should both have access to an attorney and the TD should have attended law school and passed the bar in the state in which the tournament is hosted.

But I also digress ...

Perhaps you should propose to the PDGA Rules Committee that it tweaks Rule 804.05. The Rule as written now is quite vague about standards of proof. Perhaps that is gross oversight. Perhaps that was on purpose. Regardless, this debate is essentially about that rule, NOT the provisions the SN BOD voted for that address potential probation and/or bans as a result of multiple infractions under 804.05.

The actual provisions for warnings or disqualification from an individual tournament are already covered under 804.05 (and further explained in the PDGA Competition Manual). Under the first paragraph of the SN Handbook, we have been playing under that rule right along. I am not quite sure why we have picked this juncture to address the initial burden of proof.

While they are at it, the SN Tournament Series BOD should take a good long look at the PDGA Rulebook AND the Competition Manual AND the Players and Eligibility Document AND the Tour Standards Document. The Competition Manual especially states that it is to be used in conjunction with the Rulebook and that any conflicts between the two documents should be resolved by referring to the Competition Manual.

This is important, because the Competition Manual goes to even greater length than the Rulebook to spell out specifics of what it calls Professional Misconduct. It makes interesting reading, but effectively BOTH illegal substances AND alcohol consumption are forbidden from the 2-minute warning until the card is turned in. In addition "abuse of alcohol after play and on course property is considered professional misconduct."

The SN BOD should make a decision if and where it wishes to depart from the PDGA Rules of Play and the Competition Manual and the Tour Standards Document and the Players and Eligibility Document and codify those exceptions so there is no doubt where we stand on such issues.

That would assist players and TDs alike in knowing the differences, if any, between play at a PDGA tournament and play at a SN tournament. It might also have the effect of spelling out whether the SN Tournament Series and the PDGA will grow along the same path or whether there are philosophical and practical differences that are destined to be mutually exclusive.

I've always been a history buff. One of the stories I've heard along the way was of the first ever PDGA sponsored tourney. It was at the KOA Styx River campground between Pensacola and Mobile in 1978 or perhaps '79.

The story goes that after the tourney some of the young ladies in attendance got topless and took a dip in the river. Many of the golfers were observed by the campground manager "putting their feet up on coffee tables." When the manager saw these two things happening he ordered the baskets pulled up and would not allow another tourney on the property.

I just find it interesting that here we are almost 30 years later still dealing with the same problem. To me it all comes down to one thing: RESPECT!

Respect for the sport, respect for your fellow golfers, respect for the parks/campuses that installed courses and respect for the rules of tournament play. There's a big difference between a casual round with friends and a tournament round. We should all learn to realize and respect that difference.

just my .02

Matt

________________________________________________________________________________________________

A disc chuckin' Panic lovin' fool

PDGA #30274

"If I were to wish for anything, I should not wish for wealth or power, but for the passionate sense of the potential, for the eye which, ever young and ardent, sees the possible."
Soren Kierkegaard

Good point, Matt, but in some cases, if too many feet are on the table during casual rounds and picnicers, walkers, casual park workers see it, a course could be pulled. Same goes with loud cursing around other park users. You never know what might make it back to the park manager or park and rec director. rWc3523

well said matt; you hit it rite on the noggin; i didn't know you were that smart.

Again....no one is questioning the Rule's existence we are questioning the Rule's ENFORCEMENT....

trust me here folks, just because it's a PDGA rule-makes it NO BETTER than any other rule...


THE PDGA can sit here all day and say their series has no problem and the SN is full of pot-heads (Great unity attempt--there's another digression)...

WE ALL KNOW HOW FULL OF SHULE that is....what a joke...

I really think this "attack" from PDGA'ers that have their own skeleton's in their closet (not directed at Chris whom I mutually respect) needs to stop...

The reasons PDGA got the black eye over history for their "enforcement" in certain areas of the country is because the enforcement was not made reasonable by supporting evidence....

ASK THE FOLKS IN NASVILLE as a clear example....

Now, why should the SN want to walk down that path??? We can do better by creating a better rule and reasonable enforcement thereof....

Griff

to be clear....

NO ONE is suggesting an individual should be ignored due to the overwhelming presence of people that see things differently...

BUT, holding one man's word over another's is BS Any rule that places this onerous crap on the back of the TD is BS...

PDGA's enforcement of their precious rule is BS...

If it's an issue a second will never be a problem....

But if a TD is going to take one person's ranting over another's then you HAVE problems...

Why would it be bad tio suggest a rule that requires support to the allegations??? Explain that point to me!!!

If anything, it makes the transgression more relevant and the severity of the sentence will then not be problematic...

Be clear....I have repeatedly shown support for the existence of the RULE--my problem is the discussion threads of how it should be enforced....and whose word is taken as "gospel" and whose is not....

Support to the accuser's statement is nothing but a common sense requirement....

Griff

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Russ3523
Good point, Matt, but in some cases, if too many feet are on the table during casual rounds and picnicers, walkers, casual park workers see it, a course could be pulled. Same goes with loud cursing around other park users. You never know what might make it back to the park manager or park and rec director. rWc3523

I won't argue that point, except to say the SN and or the PDGA has rules governing Tournament play not casual rounds. We will have more than enough on our hands just dealing with what goes on during tourneys. Good luck to you if you want to try and tell people how to live their lives outside of that.

Individual clubs may step up and make rules on the subject. I know our club the Emerald Coast Disc Golf Club instituted a rule last fall that during official club sponsored rounds there will be no "feet on table." People have been respecting the rule. I have not heard a complaint since.

I reiterate, it's all about RESPECT.

I agree Matt D. It is a shame we even need to walk this walk...

Griff

Bravo Matt and the Emerald Coast Disc Golf Club for the rule concerning "feet on the table" during club sponsored rounds. It is so refreshing to be able to play in events without having to deal with this issue because everyone respects the rule.

OK, Griff, basically what you are saying is that if I alone in a group do not "put my feet on the table," I am going to have to tolerate whatever transgressions of Rule 804.05 others in my group perpetrate simply because I have no second.

I think it is a huge leap to just assume "If it's an issue a second will never be a problem.... " How does that square with my experience at a tournament where for two rounds everyone else in my group had their boots on the table all round long.

What happens under your raised bar if two people report it and three people refute it? How do you feel about Josh's observation that any certified PDGA official's word should be sufficient unto itself?

I can think of several crimes where, if we extended your requirements for proof, the victims might as well just seek medical treatment and suck it up because ultimately it is just going to be he said/she said.

Chris an offical has always had that right. Nothing new there,same ole stuff just another day. kick your feet up and relax;o]~ j/k

Respect is half the issue. Respect for your sport, the courses, and individuals. Anything that puts a course in jeopardy of removal or affects the growth of this sport, is a big Hell No in my book. If you happen to partake of any ILLEGAL substance, which I will not judge you if you do, realize that it is ILLEGAL (banned everywhere) and have the courtesy to do it discreetly in your car on the way to the tournament or afterwards. Do realize I am not attacking anyone who uses as my closest friends most definitely keep there "feet on the table."

The second half of the issue is "cleaning" up the tournaments making them more professional. I myself enjoy many a good cold beer before, between and after tournament and casual rounds. However, for the sake of the growth sport and tournament professionalism I can withold until after a tournament. I heartily agree with griff that a well rounded rule with no loop holes would be best. He said she said generaly leaves people feeling bitter and causes dividing lines between groups. Although I believe a rule is needed, hastily throwing something out there could cause even more problems instead of being a solution as griff was saying. A simple suggestion, for championships or bigger tournaments, would be to have tournament officials spread out every three to five holes. These officials would be in charge of those holes between them. Certain smells generaly carry, and it would be nice to have those guys around for other official calls that may be raised during a round of championship play. I do understand that this would not work for smaller tournaments with less help. I do not have any good suggestions for wording of the rule, I leave that to those with the power of lawspeak. I do suggest that it is easily interpreted with clear cut lines for the TDs to act unanimously across the board. Also, if such a rule was in place it must be equally enforced by all present, not hit or miss at tournaments, or it is doomed for failure from the jump.

Again, I say that growth of the sport should be and is the main goal of most golfers. This should be first and formost in our minds as we make changes for the future.



Edited 3 time(s). Last edit at 04/03/2008 10:21PM by tgod.

good post

One thing my father always taught me when it came to sports was professionalism. He taught me to always act in a manner that would earn peoples respect. I used to play basketball when I was younger and then all the way through high school and if my dad ever caught me trash talking he would kick my butt. He always told me to let my playing speak for me and to never get in an argument with another player. He said they may not like me but they would respect me. I will be the first to admit that I am guilty of having my "feet on the table" but what I have learned from reading this post is that I should have respect. Respect, not only for my own image as a player and the way I conduct myself but for the TD of the tournament in which I am playing. I as disc golfer should have enough respect for the TD to not put them in a situation where they have to DQ me because I am sure that is the last thing a TD wants to do. What everyone else does is their choice. I promise to never judge and hope that no one will judge me but out of respect to my image, the TD, and the lessons my father taught me I will conduct myself in a professional manner.

Anyone know where to get some HGH ??? :0 Bud

Yo Byron, I think you should be a little carefull with your posts! What you do or say is up to you but, with your real name and you admiting to the aforementioned statement, tread lightly!

A "practical joke" by one of my co-workers, I think. Password protection on my screensaver from now on. Hopefully, it will be deleted.

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Byron Wood
A "practical joke" by one of my co-workers, I think. Password protection on my screensaver from now on. Hopefully, it will be deleted.

so chris your actually saying that we should be scared to keep records; thats b.s. all venues keep records; im sorry but thats just crazy.


Actually, that is called libel. The only records that would be traceable are the penalties enforced on the player for those actions. The actions cannot be discussed because that body that keeps the records publicly can get their pants sued off.

ok im gonna jump in here and ask questions.

1) what sport, am or pro, allows during competition the consumption of alcohol or tobacco products?

Ive only seen one golfer smoke and that was John Daly and we know how cool he is. The illegal things are even more rampant in our sport than either of these other two mention things combined. I was playing an SN event last year. One of the BIG BIG ones with my son Dalton. Someone in my group lit up right in front on he and I. What do you do?

2) Are we trying to make ourselves more professional and be taken seriously by other organizations, including sponsors?

I will probably never become a pro in disc golf. I have been playing for 15 years now and Im not very good, but I have close friends and one family member in particular who are. If we are striving for better attendance and better sponsorship then we have to clean up what we have playing in our tourneys. We do not have the man power or the "want to" to do this though. We will forever be looked at like the no shirt wearing, beer drinking, pot smoking, cursing, redneck hillbillies of the sport. Until we as a group make a better effort to better our perception we will be just as I have said.

3) How do we turn in people playing our sport and keeping it alive?

Now dont get lost on where I am going on this. I have liked I said before, been doing this a long time and now have a son and wife involved. I dont like having to go to tourneys and pleading with the TD, who has enough on his plate day of the event, to not put them with certain people. It is so ridiculous now that I have not played a single round in a tournament in 5 years without someone "smoking". How do you go to a TD and say Id like that person thrown out or can you talk to them about that please. TD goes back and says hey man that guy...dont lit up around him. Oh by the way the TD smokes also.... What are you supposed to do? Get looked at like a nark and not have any kind of conversations or friends in the sport at all.

We need more volunteers at tournaments to be posted every few holes I guess. But who...more pot smokers? It a losing battle. If I have offended any of my friends Im sorry. Disc golf will always be in my life. For those of you who at least ask before hand....Thank you for some courtesy.

"HOGMAN"
HyZer Nation

I'm certain there is probably a bit of drinking and other things in other "local" golf tournaments... maybe not on the televised stuff but that doesn't mean it doesn't happen.

Don't get me wrong Alan, I understand... I was just trying to put it into better perspective.

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I know. And let me go back and say one...probably the only one of the rounds I have played without "activity" was with you in Lafayette. By the way is the Bogey going to happen this year?

"HOGMAN"
HyZer Nation

It's not looking like it will... I've tried to get others with the means to step in but so far no takers.

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Local golf tournaments are sponsered by beer companies and bud girls or coors girls are there passing out beer. Hell they have race cars sponsered by alcohol companies.. I mean really?!?!?!

Terry Zeringue

And when they win they celebrate with big bottles of champagne.

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It brings me down to meet the mood I'm in.
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way to promote Don't Drink and Drive.

Terry Zeringue

Hahaha, funny. But sad.

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Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 04/29/2009 03:50PM by Gilligan.

I know of a person who has been caught cheating MANY times, and she keeps on doing it. Before the round, we have to tell everybody just in case they don't know her reputation. Others have to keep up with her throws and score along with their own during each round. That can add to the frustration of the round. It's a shame that we have to do that. If she isn't somewhat punished, then she will keep cheating. Unfortunately, we have to do the extra work.



Edited 3 time(s). Last edit at 05/08/2009 09:29AM by Karen J..

That would require a TD with balls, and that seems hard to find... plus it's a female player... oh no, we can't say ANYTHING bad to her, she might quit coming and ruining the sport for everyone. ;)

That is sad... TD's need to learn to take a more hardline stance on issues like this.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Take me to the window and understand
I got a rocking chair in my skin.
And every time the wind blows
It brings me down to meet the mood I'm in.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

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SFC Top10 Bag Tag database

Gilligan Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> That would require a TD with balls, and that seems
> hard to find... plus it's a female player... oh
> no, we can't say ANYTHING bad to her, she might
> quit coming and ruining the sport for everyone.
> ;)
>
> That is sad... TD's need to learn to take a more
> hardline stance on issues like this.

You are exactly right!!!!!!!! It's really hard to find a TD that will take a hardline stance. Nobody wants to ruffle anybody's feathers even if it is the right thing to do.