Members Present: Mike Sidebottom, Barbara Daniels, Don Tomasko, Matthew Gardner, Will Corey, Josh Lenox

1. Voted 3-3 to allow Pro women to play ADV Men at the 2009 SNAC. An email will be sent to Jim Orum to break the tie.

2. Mike Sidebottom presented an update on the SNDC players pack.

3. Josh Lenox presented an update on the SNAC players pack.

4. Matthew Gardner discussed opening up nominations for the 2009 BOD slots. (Mike Sidebottom, Barbara Daniels, and Josh Lenox's slots will be up for election.)

5. Discussed status of unpaid events.

SN BOD

On an additional note, I spoke to JK after the meeting by phone. The following actions will be taken:

1. The SN Treasurer position will be tranfered to Josh Lenox at the SNDC in Pensacola.

2. Will Corey will recieve JK's forum passwords etc so he can take over the forum responsibilities.

3. While JK will be the official TD, there is an alternate TD for the SNPC to cover the event after JK leaves for active duty. Josh Lenox will assist with money issues.

Josh Lenox

Shouldn't the voting be transparent as it has in the past?

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Take me to the window and understand
I got a rocking chair in my skin.
And every time the wind blows
It brings me down to meet the mood I'm in.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

SN Top25 Bag Tag database
BRDGA Top10 Bag Tag database
MADGA Top10 Bag Tag database
SFC Top10 Bag Tag database

yes because i would love to know who voted and why they voted for a Pro Woman to be able to play in the AM division for the SNAC. Why was there even a vote,, isn't there already a rule saying that if your a PRO (and cashed within 6 months) you can't play in the AM division. It shouldn't matter if it is a woman or man.

And while we are on this topic,, is it 6 months from then end of the season? Or 6 months from the SNAC?

Terry Zeringue

i will only say that i don't have a problem with my vote being known; no matter what we vote on; i agree that we should explain our vote but when we do explain thats the end of it; don't know how the rest of the board feels about that so i will stop here.

I don't mind my vote being known either mike


I voted yes and my only reason is just because haha if they wanna play let them play. I think they could play better in int but the vote was to play adv. So either way I vote yes!


No biggie on who knows my vote I also voted for McCain haha

well i guess if your going to let them know i will to; i voted NO!!!!! just like that.

still don't know how you can even vote on this,,, we ALREADY have a rule in place

A player relinquishes amateur status by competing in a Professional division of a SNDG sanctioned event and accepting prize money for finishing in that Professional division.

Terry Zeringue

i agree terry.

I could understand if it wasn't a rule,, or if a vote was made to change some of the rules, but not voting on breaking the rules.

Terry Zeringue

Jim cast his vote as no. Motion fails 3 votes for, 4 against.

Also, I don't mind releasing the names since we had to publish who Jim's vote:

Voting Yes: Josh Lenox, Don Tomasko, and Mathew Gardner

Voting No: Mike Sidebottom, Barbara Daniels, and Will Corey

SNBOD

On a personal note: We are all aware of the limitations of the women's field. BOD's in the past have allowed female pros to step down into the men's am divisions. Being married to a female pro, I have a slightly different view of this issue.

Josh

Josh,, thank you for your last two posts. Also thank you board for the time you put in.

Terry Zeringue

I also thank you... you have to do what you have to do... at least it was democratic.

Maybe in the future there should be a vote to ammend the rules to accomadate women stepping down.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Take me to the window and understand
I got a rocking chair in my skin.
And every time the wind blows
It brings me down to meet the mood I'm in.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

SN Top25 Bag Tag database
BRDGA Top10 Bag Tag database
MADGA Top10 Bag Tag database
SFC Top10 Bag Tag database

A vote for changing of the rule should happen between the Championships and Xmas,, that way everyone know in advance and it won't look like favortism toward certain people. If the rule was what it is, i would like to see every PRO women play ADV and all be on my card ;O)

Terry Zeringue

I completely agree Terry... any rule that is changed now should be effective THIS season at best, and not past seasons for sure!

I was not trying to call for a new vote on the same issue in just a different way... absolutely not!

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Take me to the window and understand
I got a rocking chair in my skin.
And every time the wind blows
It brings me down to meet the mood I'm in.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

SN Top25 Bag Tag database
BRDGA Top10 Bag Tag database
MADGA Top10 Bag Tag database
SFC Top10 Bag Tag database

I hear ya,,, i think the board got this one right,,, maybe bring it up again after the championships, but maybe they can change the wording for women (i wouldn't agree, but if they change the rule for women then i'll support that rule)

Terry Zeringue

Right, the board voted and I'll support that even if I disagree...

I was just saying maybe in the future there should be another vote... future and should. ;)

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Take me to the window and understand
I got a rocking chair in my skin.
And every time the wind blows
It brings me down to meet the mood I'm in.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

SN Top25 Bag Tag database
BRDGA Top10 Bag Tag database
MADGA Top10 Bag Tag database
SFC Top10 Bag Tag database

my reasoning for voting no was because these are professional woman players, not am. If they had not cashed in the past 6 months, then it would be no problem.

I think that both genders should be treated equally

-will

My thoughts on the matter are that they should be allowed to play where they would be competitive... again, they are pro's because who offers Adv womens? What true pro women players do we really have? This is not meant as a diss to any of the ladies that play pro.. all the ones I speak to say they should really be playing Adv but there isn't an Adv division.

Look at the Adv. women's points list... oh wait... there really isn't one, it's mixed with the Am Women.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Take me to the window and understand
I got a rocking chair in my skin.
And every time the wind blows
It brings me down to meet the mood I'm in.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

SN Top25 Bag Tag database
BRDGA Top10 Bag Tag database
MADGA Top10 Bag Tag database
SFC Top10 Bag Tag database

then they can go to INT men instead of pro women

Terry Zeringue

How accomadating.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Take me to the window and understand
I got a rocking chair in my skin.
And every time the wind blows
It brings me down to meet the mood I'm in.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

SN Top25 Bag Tag database
BRDGA Top10 Bag Tag database
MADGA Top10 Bag Tag database
SFC Top10 Bag Tag database

Or don't accept the cash and become a PRO.
If one plays in a protected division and moves to a PRO protected division (no matter what the reason is) and accepts cash, then it's that persons fault. That person could of either turned down the cash or played in division more challenging which is not a PRO division. Women already have more options than men 40 and under. They have more division to which to enter.

Terry Zeringue

Well, I will NOT be playing in ANY tourny's for at least 6 months..Then I WILL start playing AM"s. Blue Angel Christmas Classic will be my next tourny..and I will be playing Am's

Michelle "Snap"





pdga# 30918
wdga# 098



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 06/08/2009 10:10AM by Snap.

I thought you could only turn down cash once..That rule was set in place so one could see how they would fair playing PRO..if they cashed they could turn it down once..but if they played again in PRO, and cashed they had to accept the cash??? is this right

u can turn it down all you want. u can only turn it down and accept prizes in leiu of cash once.

jeff h

From a father's perspective:

Mandy (14 years old) plays well above the Am Women's division level and wants to move up. However, she would not be competative in Pro Women's division. Unfortunately for her, Advanced Women is rarely offered, and that's what she needs - to move from short to long tees at an incremental skill level pace.

I completely agree it isn't feasible for TD's to offer a division, if only one participant shows for it. It's common sense on their part because of trophies and payout costs. I also believe there is reasonable logic behind the "three person minimum."

Unfortunately, in one recent SNDG event, Mandy was forced to choose between playing in a men's division, or not playing at all. I can't express to you how disappointing that was for her. In the TD's defense, the divisions were posted well in advance, so we accepted the possibility there might not be a legitimate division for her.

It is sad to see a young lady with great potential getting discouraged (and she is) with the game because her gender and skill level place her in an "atypical" division. It hurts me as a father to witness it, her as a player to experience it, and SNDG as an organization to have it.

I'm not saying the SNDG make special rules and exceptions to benefit a single individual. But rather, as a whole, consider what benefits the future of the organization and sport?

If you build it, will they come? I don't know. But one thing is certain...if you don't build it, they'll never come.

Thank you, SNDG BOD, for your consideration to this post. in future discussions about this issue. I appreciate your dedication and volunteerism to our sport!

Randy,

The 2 am women's divisions have been combined. She can play either division. There simply are not enough women to justify having 2 separate divisions. Marla and Judy basically began the ADV division in the SN a few years ago. It never prevented a woman from playing in just "Am Women" if there were not enough ladies to form and ADV division.

Also, if she shows up to an event and is the only am woman, I would hope that the TD would open a division up for her. If not, I think the ladies would like to know the TD who refused her.

Josh

I agree with Josh completely on the point that they should have opened up an Am Women's division.

Randy, there is no doubt that Mandy can tear it up and is a force to be reckoned with and that isn't even taking in to account her age! Just wait!

This is exactly the point that I was trying to make... The better women in the SN want to move up from Am Women because they feel bad if they are always beating the other ladies that are starting out... usually it's one of you guy's gf that you've convinced to start playing... good on ya for that, but having her get demolished by one of our "pro" ladies won't help encourage them to continue to play (grow the sport). So that doesn't happen, our ladies move up... and they move up to the only place they can (and still feel comfortable)... pro women. Everyone thinks it would be great to have an Adv Women field but it's honestly not feesible at this point in time.

What you guys seem to be out of touch with is that the ladies aren't comfortable playing with all the guys a lot of the times... especially if they are travelling to new places. Hell, it even goes the other way also, some guys don't like to play on the women's card if there are 3 ladies and you need to put a 4th person on the card. I've helped with the cards several times and it's been asked "who wouldn't mind playing on the ladies card?"

If we want the women's division to grow then we certainly don't need to be pushing them away, we need to be accomadating... even if it seems like it goes against logic (this is ladies we are talking about after all :p ).

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Take me to the window and understand
I got a rocking chair in my skin.
And every time the wind blows
It brings me down to meet the mood I'm in.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

SN Top25 Bag Tag database
BRDGA Top10 Bag Tag database
MADGA Top10 Bag Tag database
SFC Top10 Bag Tag database