Why not have everyone that competes in SN championships both am and pro vote at the championships- when you sign up give everyone a ballot to fill out- those are your real members, the people who come to play in the Championships. If you want to let people who have points and are not at the tourneys vote online by proxy I quess that would be all right- but i think the ones who should have a voice are the ones that play in SN Championships!!!! BUD

I know that here in Mobile very few of our locals get on the forum but a lot of them do go to the Championships to compete----- BUD

Thanks for all the suggestions and keep them coming everything is being read and thought about (even the stuff Brad comes up with :). The board will come up with something in the next month or so and post it on the forum...

John k

I still say if you want a voice you should buy a bag tag and when you get the bag tag you should get a vote ... the flipside of that is: no bag tag, no vote.

Buddy's point about the percentage of golfers on-line is well taken though and it harkens back to my original points that there should be more than one way to make a vote and that the voting period should extend through the championships to allow the highest percentage of those interested to vote.

Chris

Hey! I am the one right about this! :)

BRAD

I though the reason for bagtags were to raise money and to have fun playing for them. so what you are saying is that if you are not willing to spend 20$ for a tag you shouldn't be allowed to vote. Very unconstitutional! I feel if you have played in a SN event you should have some say.After all you have invested at least 2 bucks in the SN. There are more people who don't have tags, that play tournies, than do have tags. Probely more people visit this forum than the amount of people who have tags.

Yes! The reason for bagtags is to raise money.

We are basically talking about two models here ...

1) There is the "let the unwashed masses dying to vote" model that says anyone who plays in even only one SN event has the right to have a voice in choosing the people who will shape the future of SN.

2) Then there is the model that rewards those people who go beyond just paying their "sales tax" and take the opportunity to invest additional monies in Southern National with membership and a vote.

You can play in many PDGA tournaments without being a PDGA member (you just have to pay the "sales tax"). If you want to be a member and vote, however, you have to go the extra mile and join.

The Mobile disc club is the same way (as I would bet are a majority of the disc clubs. To vote for club board members (or to be a board member) you must be a member of the club. To become a member of the club we require you to tell us your name and plunk down $10. The $10 helps pays the club's annual operating expenses and allows us give back to the disc golf community in tangible ways.

So really it boils down to everyone votes or only the people who go the extra mile to support SN in a tangible way get to vote (and serve).

Chris

Just playing in a SN event doesn't mean you are truely a SN disc golfer- many people who play in a tourney where going to play in it whether it was SN or not. The real SN golfers will be at the championships- give them a ballot when they sign up and let them vote- you will have enough of the players invloved to hear the voice of the people- the only thing is, that you would need the nominations in hand BEFORE the two events and that leads to how do you come up with the canidates?? Does Jim nominate them- are they nominated and seconded by two people- are they nominated by themselves and what qualifies someone to be nominated????? BUD

Bag tags...membership should have it's priveleges.

Bud, one problem I see with the "vote at the Champs." version is that the host city/area will control the vote in most cases.

What I mean is: say the Champs. are at the Hill. We have 210 entries. 80 outta towners and the rest from Memphis/Tupelo/WallDoxey (other close-by disc golf areas)---the votes will lean heavily towrd the favor of that region since the MAJORITY of the players will be from within the "2.5 hour travel time" circle. That would tend to slight Mobile/LA golfers simply because of the number that will not/cannot travel. (clear like muddy water, right?)

I know there's more than one Championship which would, in theory, be in different parts of our SN region, but still those locales would have a "weighted" advantage.

Bottom line, imho, sell a tag-get an address(e-mail or regular), receive a ballot/opportunity to vote.

Respectfully submitted, Griff

Well here is my problem with all of this.

I've played in 10 trny's so far this year (down from previous years) with many trny's yet to come. I have helped run trny's for the SN. I help maintain the courses for SN trnys to be played. I've always been active on the forum (sometimes a little too active).

BUT

I currently do not own a bag-tag AND I am not possitive that I will be able to attend the SNDGC because of $$. I know it is a long way away, but I am getting married in a year, and i'm in dept right now as it is.

So what i've been reading, except for a few posts, is that i wouldn't be able to vote because i do not support the SN enough. IS this really the case?

If the membership thing would apply, which i don't have a problem with at all, it would have to start next season.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 03/03/2004 12:06PM by .

Zing, perhaps the Board should have some "exceptions to the rule" in place for certain circumstances. After submission for cause, the Board could allow names to be added to the eligible list of voters. Just a thought. Griff

Points well taken, Zinger, although I tend to think that most people who can make the kind of commitment to SN tournaments that you describe can find $20 for a bag tag ...

The Mobile Area Disc Golf Association By-laws were drafted to include an category of membership for people who contribute tangibly to the success of disc golf in Mobile in ways other than monetarily. Why not structure something similiar for SN? It certainly coudln't hurt and it might provide some people who are cash-poor the chance to earn membership through demonstrated deeds.

Start with TDs. Any SN TD gets a voting membership. I think Brad suggested that one anyway. Award membership to any disc golfer who plays in more than 10 SN tournaments a year. Have a special category of contributors who could be voted into membership by the board for services above and beyond.

I think it is important to set the bar fairly high for these non-bagtag members. In other words, cleaning up your local course before the circus comes to town or helping the TD score cards during your lunch break at a tournament are all well and good, but it takes a little more to be a southern national member.

Chris

lol ... yeah, what Griff said ...

These are some of my personal thoughts, not the boards, but some points I will be bringing up...

Need to have the procedures and rules in place by the end of the season. Hopefully the majority of votes can be counted and tabulated BEFORE the Pro championships but allow people to vote on Saturday of the pro championship with a Saturday evening cutoff.

I don't think we should exclude the players that don't have/can't afford a bag-tag, however a compromise would be that the votes would be weighted. If you have purchased a bag-tag your vote is counted twice or possible three times. Sn tournament players that don't have a bag-tag vote but their vote is only counted once. Everyone has a voice, but the bag-tag holders is a little louder.

Have the ability to vote online, or at least email votes. Ballots at tourney's if the TD or someone wants to do that and mail them to whoever is tabulating the votes.

Only one stipulation I'd put on potential Sn board candidates. They must have a computer or at least one they can get to. With everyone spread out regionally most of our discussions have been online. It's hard to get everyone at any one tournament.

John k

i thought the reps. were from certain areas. why dont the areas decide who to send. are these highly sought after positions? john k you usually make sense when you post. but, tying votes to dollars is troubling. all you do is apprecitated.

now go ace one for, um, its the right thing to do

JG

Why is votes for dollars so troubling? ...

Most clubs I know, including the PDGA, allow their membership to vote for elected club officials. To become a member you pay a membership fee. Non-members can't vote for elected officials, but, at least in SN, they are welcome to enjoy any and all of the other benefits of the organization.

Chris

Maybe you could make up a small questionair about who can get on line, how people would like to vote, when we should vote, how we should nominate....etc and e-mail it to TDs for up coming touneys where they can be filled out by SN tourney goers then mailed to you so you can get feedback on where people stand??? BUD

no problem with the membership fee. it was the 2 or so votes for paying more.

JG

I think it would be a great idea if you could have one or two "sticky" discussion threads dedicated to the tournaments for the coming week where TDs could post updates, course and scheduling information and where players could indicate they were coming and ask questions about formats and tees and such. The reason for making it a sticky is so that TDs don't have to keep logging on and bringing these important threads back to the top when they drift off the front page.

I have noticed in the last two weeks that it is almost a full-time job keeping a thread "above the fold." I think that the TDs for tournaments a week or less away shouldn't have to compete for this space against threads for tournaments happening in two months, "what's in your bag," people selling discs, etc.

I also think that you have two kinds of "sticky" threads: more or less permanent ones like this one and others of a more transitory nature like Play of the Week #4, which no one has contributed to since 1/9/04. Once a temp sticky thread has served its purpose, it should be cut loose to drift in SN etherspace.

Just a thought,

Chris

good idea chris...

This is funny. I thought the big draw of SNDG is that you don't have pay some silly membership like the PDGA ;-). Growth hurts, don't it. Just ask my belt.

I second Chris's sticky thread idea.

Again, ya don't NEED to pay any membership...just if you want a tag and/or a vote! It's not like we're CHARGING EXTRA $$ to ALLOW you to play/participate!!! Griff

I just KNOW that Chris was referring to me when he made that tournament sticky suggestion! ;) I think it's a great idea, as does everyone else who's sick of my Spring Fling-It threads and cross-thread posts. Only two more weeks and they're gone! Of course, then there's the Alabama State... ;) 8^)rWc

Matt Ambrose IMHO is on the same page as me. It has been since the beginning and my understanding since I was appointed to the Board that the Southern National is a tournament series that qualifies players to compete in the Southern National Championship. The Board was formed to manage the Southern National Disc Golf Tournament Series because it was getting too unmanageable for one person. Right now the responsibility of the Board is to manage tournaments. It is not a club, organization, or association. If the Southern National changes to a membership then the focus and responsibilities will shift from not only managing a tournament series but to the politics of managing players. The Southern National is player driven. That is to say that it is by the input of players that decisions are made. It is what makes the Southern National so unique. It is by posts here and conversations at tournaments that the tone of the Southern National has to this point run the series. My guide and the guide of other current Board members has two basic entries. One is, "Keep it Simple". Any player can enter a Southern National Tournament. He/she is put on a card, assigned a tee, there is a two minute warning, and then the tournament starts. It can't get much simpler than that. The second is, "If it ain't broke, don't fix it". What more does a disc golfer want than to play disc golf. When we stray from the focus of putting together the best tournament and tournament series to membership, the management mission changes and it does get more complicated.

I will say this, I don't have anything against membership persay. If membership is what players want then maybe that's what should be done. That's not what the Southern National is though. If the Southern National goes to a membership it will change the heart, soul, and spirit of what the Southern National is. As long as I am a Board member I will vote on the side of disc golf and the Southern National Tournament Series. Board Members unlike presidents, vp's, secretaries, and other club officers IMHO should be appointed. If someone wants to serve on the Board let them step forward and declare. The current Board members were selected by a criteria of experience, demonstrated dedication, and some consideration to region. Those that declare interest can lobby the Board, tournaments and the Forum. The tone of the players will show who they can see not leading them but rather who can lead the Southern National Tournament Series to be the best it can be. Who will support the Southern National's tradition and dedication to being inclusive of all players, and the play and promotion of disc golf.

Just remember, keep it simple, bang chains, and have fun!!

Bill presents a strong arguement for the KISS principle of Southern National management.

I would like to respectfully disagree with a few of his arguements.

First, I contend that the issue on the table is not membership per se, but rather how the Southern National Board is selected. The debate to date - at least the one to which I believed I was responding - did not deal with IF there should be a vote for SN board members, but WHO should have that vote.

Forgive my ignorance as a Johnny-come-lately to the SN scene, but I am not aware of a) The composition of the board; b) How many members serve; c) Who are those members; and, d) Who appointed them.

I think there are myriad advantages for creating an equitable method of selecting these board members through a voting process. I have my own personal opinions of who should get the vote and how it should be conducted. I have expressed these views many times, including in this forum. But the bottom line is that I care less about details of the process and more about the empowerment of the players who are SN raison d'etre.

The chief arguement for doing away with board appointments lies in Bill's observation that "it was getting too unmanageable for one person." Granted SN has grown far beyond the ability of one person to administer, guide and nurture. There are so many tournaments in this tournament series now that it is become near impossible to find a weekend when, for instance, Mobile isn't banging heads with Tishomingo. Why then is it practical to think that board members should be appointed? What is wrong with giving the very people who are the embodiment of the Southern National Tournament Series an active powerful voice in determining the future direction of their series.

Bill states, "If the Southern National goes to a membership it will change the heart, soul, and spirit of what the Southern National is." I contend that SN already has a de facto membership, and I also cannot concur for a second that giving those people a chance to pick their representatives will change the heart and soul and spirit" of SN. Those attributes spring not from SN the organization but from SN the disc golfers.

Yes, the administration of membership would add another layer of complexity to the board's mission. But I contend that you can have your cake and eat it too. At the present we are not talking about rocket science. One of the arguements put forward (and one to which I concur) is that membership could come with the purchase of a bag tag and with membership could come a vote. How much complication does that add? You buy a bagtag, once a year or every other year you cast a vote (if you choose) and someone puts a check mark by your name. Sure you could look down the line into a possible future where members had pensions and health insurance and 401Ks, but that is pretty darn far-fetched.

Basically, all we are talking about here is keeping a list of who bag tags are sold to and them giving them a say in who they want on the board. Think of the Southern Nationals as a publicly traded corporation. Think of the bag tags as a stock certificate. Think of the vote as a stockholder's meeting. Anyone can "do business" with Southern Nationals anytime they want. No one is holding a Firebird to their heads forcing them to buy a bag tag. Anyone can also go out and "buy stock" and with their stock they get a chance to attend the stockholder's meeting and vote.

There I go again, making my arguement ... I really meant to write this solely as a response to Bill's points. So let me just return to the point where I went astray ... that SN has a de facto membership. Let them have an OFFICIAL say in their series (we all know what lobbying in this forum and $4 will get you: a venti Carmel Macchiato at Starbucks! That reminds me ....

Chris

Chris,

You make a lot of good points. I can tell you from some small experience with the PDGA that getting elected isn't very hard (if I can do it, anyone can). All you really need is a desire to take the responsibility and a little bit of recognition and support from your fellow golfers. Having said that, a vanishingly small % of the PDGA membership even gets their membership renewal in in time and actually votes.

I do like the less formal aspects of the SN way of doing things. I think that anyone who desires sincerely to be on the board will probably get there regardless of how the selection is made.

I don't see anything wrong with the current system and I don't particularly object to the idea of a bag tag holder vote. I was merely pointing out the pride that SN golfers have in their no membership system.

Do we currently know who has already purchased tags? If we don't it is going to be tough to make it work.

I just got a haircut so somebody holding a Firebird to my head would definitely smart, "That's gonna leave a mark!"

If we could do it online somehow that would be cool but probably a headache for the webmaster. Sending out and collecting ballots is no fun.

Chris,

Thank you for your response. It is so helpful when players take the time to truly offer alternatives and solutions to the challenges the Southern National, as represented by the players, face.

Perhaps JimO or another Board Member would be better suited to address the Board appointment you mentioned:

"Forgive my ignorance as a Johnny-come-lately to the SN scene, but I am not aware of a) The composition of the board; b) How many members serve; c) Who are those members; and, d) Who appointed them."

However, here is my take. I don't know if it was by design or it just worked out that way to have a regional representation on the Board. There are six members on the Board with JimO as the tie breaker if one is needed.

Board Members:
Paul Vogel, Slidell, LA
Danny Daniels, Memphis, TN
Shane Seal, Carriere, MS
Addie Isbell, Huntsville, AL
Bill Trousdale, North Little Rock, AR
John Kittrell, North Little Rock, AR Chairman

Jim Orum spent several months deliberating,interviewing,and seeking counsel from players to select Board Members. My experience is that Jim approached me at the Dogwood Classic in Memphis last May. He explained what he had in mind and asked if I would be interested in being a Board Member. I told him I was honored that I should even be considered. If he thought that I had something to contribute to the establishment and construct of a Southern National Board I would do all I could to see it realized. However, I have been involved in disc golf promotion and administration for twenty years. I thought that I was entering the autumn of my disc golf years and was looking forward to taking my place in the gallery. Instead, at the request of players here, again worked my way through city government and the Parks Department, to add another 18 hole course to Burns Park. I told Jim I would bring to the table all my experience and do all I could with other yet to be selected Board Members to build a foundaton and framework for the Southern National on which it could build and grow. Then send me to the back nine. (That's where Grandmasters are sent. :) )

It is by the input from this Suggestion Thread , Forum and players at tournaments across the Southern National that the Board will take a consensus and develope policy and guidelines for the Southern National.

Chris:
"The chief arguement for doing away with board appointments lies in Bill's observation that "it was getting too unmanageable for one person." Granted SN has grown far beyond the ability of one person to administer, guide and nurture. There are so many tournaments in this tournament series now that it is become near impossible to find a weekend when, for instance, Mobile isn't banging heads with Tishomingo. Why then is it practical to think that board members should be appointed? What is wrong with giving the very people who are the embodiment of the Southern National Tournament Series an active powerful voice in determining the future direction of their series."

This is not an argument against board appointments but rather an arugument for board appointments. It was getting too unmanageable for one person. The delegation of responsibility was needed from one person, JimO. Now that the Board is appointed it is the Boards responsibility to develope how it is to continue. I am going to get with Bord members and suggest that a committee on which I would like to see players such as you Chris and Matt and others to review these Forums. Identify specific suggestions and formats for Board Member selection. Consloidate them in a presentable, legible manner to be posted on the Forum and reviewed by the Board.

This is where it starts to get real. Where the plastic meets the chain. It's one thing to sit in one's chair and bang out text on how it should be. It's something else to take action. It was a grand idea and a wonderful challenge for all the Board Members to set the standards and guidelines for the Southern National. When we met in that hotel room in Baton Rouge for the first time the reality and scope of what we were faced with started to sink in.

I told the Board early on the Southern National area is filled with dedicated, experienced, responsible players who are wanting to do all they can for disc golf and the Southern National. We, the Board, should develope working committees for promotion, advertising, bag tags, elections, and more. The disc golf community should be involved. The more involved the easier tasks can be completed. The Boards purpose then becomes more defined in management and decisions are not so overwhelming.

We have not even finished our first year. There is so much to do. With your's and the help of all Southern National players, we will work through the challenge of orgainizing the Southern National to be the best it can be.

Thank you Chris and Matt. You and players like you give light to the end of the tunnel. I look forward to the day I can step down to players such as yourselves and see the Southern National in good hands, viable, and growing.

Bill Trousdale

I for one am in agreement that there should be a KISS solution to all of this, it would be my opinion that if an individual competes in SN tournaments in a given year, he or she should be given the right to vote for board members if that person so chooses. I believe that the amount of individuals voting would be less than 50%, as there would be people who care about playing DG and not the other workings of the SN.

It would be very easy to take a list of these players from the database and to track votes. This way a vote would be all inclusive of the real base of the SN who is the players themselves.


Just my humble opinion

I still think that the best way is to give out ballots at each of the championships when players sign-up and have them vote on the spot-- these are your true members not players who happen to have played in a tourney in their home town which was a SN event. Buying a bag tag should be a separate thing and should only be to show an indivdual's support for the SN series. You would get a good representation of SN players wishes on issues and who THEY want on the board. You will also get a larger number of players voting than if you do it online as well as saving the headache of validating all the online votes. Quick- easy- simple-- what more could you ask????? BUD

I say either do it like I suggested with the TD's and certain other people do it...or let Jim Orum pick who he wants....or just Appoint me Southern National Commander.

Of those three I like the last one best.

Brad