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Need Feedback - Possible Handbook Additions

Posted by jtolbert 
Need Feedback - Possible Handbook Additions
February 21, 2011 01:18PM
All SN Players,
The BoD needs feedback on the following 2 additions that are being considered by the BoD:

-Addition 1: At the championships, 3 or more players may form a division that isn't already formed. However, that division will be limited to only the funds that were collected for it throughout the season.
Explanation: 3 Pro Women players over 40 want to form a Pro Women Masters division at the championship. However, they've mostly been playing Pro Women throughout the season. They may form that Pro Women Masters division, but they would only receive cash that was collected from the Pro Women Masters division throughout the season - no additional cash.

-Addition 2: Players may "side-step" from a non-age-protected division to an age-protected divison in the championships without points, as long as the division is within the same skill level, ie. stepping from pro open to pro masters.
Explanation: A player that only has Pro Open points may step into the Pro Masters division if they are of the required age.

_______________________________________________________________________________________________
Justin Tolbert
BHS Disc Golf [www.youtube.com]
Mobile, Alabama
Re: Need Feedback - Possible Handbook Additions
February 21, 2011 02:33PM
Addition #2- I feel like a player must earn the 'right' to play in an age protected division by playing in at least one SN qualifier. Besides, why would a player put their $2/tournament fee into one division and then play another division at SNPC?
Re: Need Feedback - Possible Handbook Additions
February 21, 2011 02:39PM
Robert 'Mac' Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Addition #2- I feel like a player must earn the
> 'right' to play in an age protected division by
> playing in at least one SN qualifier. Besides,
> why would a player put their $2/tournament fee
> into one division and then play another division
> at SNPC?

Thanks for the input Robert. I think the only divisions that will really take advantage of this would be the ones that have a limited # of players at the qualifiers. For example, a female player may find it difficult to play the pro master women division due to her being the only one at a tournement. Then, she's forced to play in the pro women division instead.

_______________________________________________________________________________________________
Justin Tolbert
BHS Disc Golf [www.youtube.com]
Mobile, Alabama
Re: Need Feedback - Possible Handbook Additions
February 21, 2011 02:42PM
Robert Mac, one instance is a Master shows up to play and there is not (3) r more for that division and he bumps up to play open!
Re: Need Feedback - Possible Handbook Additions
February 21, 2011 02:44PM
Brad Wells Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Robert Mac, one instance is a Master shows up to
> play and there is not (3) r more for that division
> and he bumps up to play open!

Exactly. The issue is us deciding/figuring out if that situation happens often enough to warrant us entering a section in the handbook for it.

_______________________________________________________________________________________________
Justin Tolbert
BHS Disc Golf [www.youtube.com]
Mobile, Alabama
Re: Need Feedback - Possible Handbook Additions
February 21, 2011 03:01PM
Sorry Justin, your response must have been transmitting, when I typed mine. What if thats the only qualifyer tournement you can attend?
Re: Need Feedback - Possible Handbook Additions
February 21, 2011 03:30PM
Justin

This is a lil off the topics you have there but I would like the BOD look into forming a very strict penalty for playing in the wrong division. I am not going to call anyone out after the fact but recently I played a tournament where a person that had cashed in Pro played Am. I would like to see the people that do this obvious bagging be kept from playing in any SN championships

Matthew
Re: Need Feedback - Possible Handbook Additions
February 21, 2011 05:53PM
I thought Addition #2 was about the SNPC, not SN qualifiers. There is no problem with this proposal if it is worded correctly. There is no problem side-stepping if a player did not have the offered division at any SNQ played.
Re: Need Feedback - Possible Handbook Additions
February 21, 2011 06:04PM
You read it correctly Mac, and your feelings were mine. There was an example of that last year, and a woman played pro masters, but only played Pro Women during the year. I know she played in tournaments that had large women pro masters division. So, hence the reason for the discussion....

Keep the feedback coming..... :)
Re: Need Feedback - Possible Handbook Additions
February 21, 2011 07:14PM
this is not NEW as many players have done it in the past( even last year)! I have suggested in the past that players fees follow them to the championships. If they have played open 10 times and play in an age protected divison in the SNPC then there money should go with them.

If you need the names feel free to PM me, but again this is NOT new. Maybe new to the new BOD .............


here is an example
Tim Keith
Division(s): Pro Master (0 pts), Pro Open (11 pts)

he finished 4th in masters in the snpc and won 400.................................

plenty more if you need them :)





Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 02/21/2011 07:20PM by Tax Man.
Re: Need Feedback - Possible Handbook Additions
February 21, 2011 08:25PM
Thanks Bob.

We know that it has happened before. But there was some confusion and questions from players that may warrant us putting this in the handbook so the question doesn't have to come up. Plus, it'll have that guideline handy in case future players are wondering the same thing.

I've been told that the difficulty would be going back and tracking that money for that individual player. If they've played 4 pro open tournaments and 2 pro open master tournaments, does all of their money follow them or just the money from the division that they are playing in at the championship?

As far as side-stepping, would this involve us checking up on every SNQ that the player played to ensure that they were 100% unable to play in that age-protected division? If so, that would be a lot of work for the TD and workers at the championship.

_______________________________________________________________________________________________
Justin Tolbert
BHS Disc Golf [www.youtube.com]
Mobile, Alabama
Re: Need Feedback - Possible Handbook Additions
February 21, 2011 08:51PM
The reality is:

Very, very, very good players, no matter what their age, play in open most of the time, however when the "easy" money is in a protected age division, especially the SNPC's said player competes in the easy money older division.

The term easy money means said player knows in the open division he will probably come in fifth place and get about $200.00, but he also knows he can win 1st place in the older division and it pays $300.00. Then to make matters worse, the person who comes in second is beat by 10 or more strokes on the day. And the second place guy beat the third place guy by 1 or 2 strokes and the rest of the field follows suit.

I played GM in a Tax Tourney one year, placed second and got beat, by a legitimate aged player, by 25 strokes after two rounds.

It happens all the time, it is legal, I don' like it, but it is legal based on their age. Although I personally would vote for Addition #2; it should not be included. That could easily be considered age discrimination.

I do agree with Mac, that said player should have at least played in the division once.

Dangerous Don
Re: Need Feedback - Possible Handbook Additions
February 21, 2011 09:00PM
Side stepping? Not sure why u want to call it that as it is an option afforded to older players. Various reasons as to why they may play different divisons but it is very seldom used as an advantage. And in most cases it is based on attendence . As for tracking the money it is not that difficult to track as only a few players do it. If you are going to allow it then it only makes sense to move there fees with them. Otherwise they take from a divison in which they did not contribute which is not fair to the others.

Re: Need Feedback - Possible Handbook Additions
February 21, 2011 11:36PM
It would be asking a lot of the SNC TD's to check on every Master/GM/Legends participant to make sure all their money went into the proper division. You can say it's only a few players but again, you are just assuming the TD's will be able to be on top of all of that when they have plenty of other bigger issues to take care of vs 44 bucks not making it to a division over another division.

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It brings me down to meet the mood I'm in.
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Re: Need Feedback - Possible Handbook Additions
February 22, 2011 06:14AM
Gilligan Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> It would be asking a lot of the SNC TD's to check
> on every Master/GM/Legends participant to make
> sure all their money went into the proper
> division. You can say it's only a few players but
> again, you are just assuming the TD's will be able
> to be on top of all of that when they have plenty
> of other bigger issues to take care of vs 44 bucks
> not making it to a division over another division.

That is just a lazy mans answer! How about this then, if a player wants to side step he must inform the BOD a month in advance of the SNPC. Then the treasurer will have time to move said funds to the correct divison. It only makes sense otherwise you are allowing players to take from funds they put nothing into and also increasing another. Again it has only happened a few times in the CHAMPIONSHIP$ so it may take all of five minutes.

And if your going to do something, why not do it right?????

Re: Need Feedback - Possible Handbook Additions
February 22, 2011 07:57AM
Tax Man Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> That is just a lazy mans answer! How about this
> then, if a player wants to side step he must
> inform the BOD a month in advance of the SNPC.
> Then the treasurer will have time to move said
> funds to the correct divison. It only makes sense
> otherwise you are allowing players to take from
> funds they put nothing into and also increasing
> another.

If a player has played in Pro Open and Pro Master, but he gets all of his funds transferred to Pro Master for the championship, couldn't the Pro Open players argue that their money is being taken?

I think the easiest way to do it would be to just require those points in the division. However, in all fairness, a few players don't have the luxury of playing in their respected division at every tournament they attend.

_______________________________________________________________________________________________
Justin Tolbert
BHS Disc Golf [www.youtube.com]
Mobile, Alabama
Re: Need Feedback - Possible Handbook Additions
February 22, 2011 08:53AM
I disagree. Almost every master/GM has played in a "higher/younger" division at some point. So just about EVERY player will have to have this calculation done. At LA Dubs, the GM's played with the PM's. At City Park I believe Kernan played Open. This happens very frequently and to lots of players and not with enough consistency for the players to even be assumed responsible for moving their money when it comes time.

If it ain't broke, don't fix it. Isn't that what you all cry so often when we make ANY change?

If a person has points they can play, if they play Open all year and then play PM or GM at the championships it may suck but as Don said... it's legal. Ethical? well, that is it's own question and I don't like to see it myself but people often take whatever deductions they can on their taxes as long as it's legal... regardless if they are ethical about it or not. Same thing for the most part.

I guess the flip side is that guy COULD just play PM or GM every tournament and crush the competition every time. At least here they are only doing it at the SNCs.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Take me to the window and understand
I got a rocking chair in my skin.
And every time the wind blows
It brings me down to meet the mood I'm in.
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Re: Need Feedback - Possible Handbook Additions
February 22, 2011 08:56AM
jtolbert Wrote:
------------------------------------------------------
>
> If a player has played in Pro Open and Pro Master,
> but he gets all of his funds transferred to Pro
> Master for the championship, couldn't the Pro Open
> players argue that their money is being taken?
> the money follows the player as is the case in most situations and in this case it should follow the player otherwise he is taking from a divison he put nothing into. As for taking away from open, the said players increased the purse at the local level and that should be enough.

> I think the easiest way to do it would be to just
> require those points in the division. However, in
> all fairness, a few players don't have the luxury
> of playing in their respected division at every
> tournament they attend.
agreed but again money should follow said player to keep it fair for those that did put into the divison.

Like i said earlier it would not be that hard for these players to contact the bod ahead of the event. If not then they should stay put.

Re: Need Feedback - Possible Handbook Additions
February 22, 2011 09:03AM
Buddy is another person that can play Open, Pro Master, Grand Master and compete and win in each division.

___________________________________________________________________________
Keith "Sunshine" B.

"You are truly one miserable human being."
Alxtgr
Re: Need Feedback - Possible Handbook Additions
February 22, 2011 09:53AM
Gilligan Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I disagree. Almost every master/GM has played in
> a "higher/younger" division at some point. So
> just about EVERY player will have to have this
> calculation done. At LA Dubs, the GM's played
> with the PM's. At City Park I believe Kernan
> played Open. This happens very frequently and to
> lots of players and not with enough consistency
> for the players to even be assumed responsible for
> moving their money when it comes time.

> I said if they play in the championships there money should follow them.

> If it ain't broke, don't fix it. Isn't that what
> you all cry so often when we make ANY change?
> I aint the one coming on here asking for feedback. so if that is the way of thinking then why are we having this discussion. I agree it is not a problem worth noting in the handbook. I only mention the fees as it is THE players money and should follow them. Especialy if they have no option at the local level. Chris Lasonde always asked the TD of the event to add his money and points to masters. Maybe that is what should be added. If player wants his points in the said divison they must ask at the local level.

> If a person has points they can play, if they play
> Open all year and then play PM or GM at the
> championships it may suck but as Don said... it's
> legal. Ethical? well, that is it's own question
> and I don't like to see it myself but people often
> take whatever deductions they can on their taxes
> as long as it's legal... regardless if they are
> ethical about it or not. Same thing for the most
> part.
>
> I guess the flip side is that guy COULD just play
> PM or GM every tournament and crush the
> competition every time. At least here they are
> only doing it at the SNCs.

Re: Need Feedback - Possible Handbook Additions
February 22, 2011 10:09AM
I think that moving money around trying to follow a player is NOT the best option. As a past treasurer I don't like the idea, keep it simple, whatever division you play in at given tournament the sn fees stay there. Moving money around doesn't keep anything simple in my opinion.

There is an option for the masters or grandmasters player that doesn't want to play in a one person division but wants his points and sn fee to still contributed to that division. Sign up in masters/ grandmasters (whatever division) and ask the td to make sure your points and sn fees go toward those divisions but you want to combine the entry fee into let say the open division. I have seen this done at several tournaments in the past. The open players are taking the chance of a master or grandmaster winning some cash but 99% of them like the added money that they get to compete for.

JOhn k
Re: Need Feedback - Possible Handbook Additions
February 22, 2011 10:28AM
I agree with John... It's good in theory but with our current system and the way it is setup it is EXTREMELY difficult to make that happen.

Clearing up any possible confusing by adding some words to the handbook isn't actually changing anything that isn't already there... just keeps issues from coming up. Obviously it IS coming up because I've been approached about it, Justin has been approached by it and it has been discussed by others. So IF we do have a current understanding/accepted way of doing things then lets put it down in black and white and let it be known to anyone looking or questioning/being questioned.

If there is an overwhelming desire for us to change something then by all means we will accommodate. It's what we do.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Take me to the window and understand
I got a rocking chair in my skin.
And every time the wind blows
It brings me down to meet the mood I'm in.
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Re: Need Feedback - Possible Handbook Additions
February 22, 2011 10:50AM
Agreed.

I don't think it's an issue of changing something but more of clarifying.

_______________________________________________________________________________________________
Justin Tolbert
BHS Disc Golf [www.youtube.com]
Mobile, Alabama
Re: Need Feedback - Possible Handbook Additions
February 22, 2011 10:52AM
I also agree with John on using that option and if all protected age players are made aware of the ability to have points and fees in there desired divison. I am sure they would use this option everytime.


Again Gilly, you will not be changing anything just writing it down. Which it already is in the pDGA manual which is what the series follows :)

Re: Need Feedback - Possible Handbook Additions
February 22, 2011 12:10PM
John K. Wrote :
Sign up in masters/ grandmasters (whatever division) and ask the td to make sure your points and sn fees go toward those divisions but you want to combine the entry fee into let say the open division. I have seen this done at several tournaments in the past. The open players are taking the chance of a master or grandmaster winning some cash but 99% of them like the added money that they get to compete for.

BINGO :)
Re: Need Feedback - Possible Handbook Additions
February 22, 2011 12:39PM
Bob... you are only calling all the people that bring this topic up idiots and I don't see how that does any good.

If we have questions then we should answer them. A typical answer would be "we aren't the pdga" and that is a valid argument. So maybe we are being redundant putting this in our handbook but at least it's done and it's black and white INSIDE the SN.

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Take me to the window and understand
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And every time the wind blows
It brings me down to meet the mood I'm in.
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Re: Need Feedback - Possible Handbook Additions
February 22, 2011 12:48PM
I agree with Gilligan and John. Don't heap even more work on the TDs. If a player changes divisions, too bad. Deal with it.

rWc3523
Re: Need Feedback - Possible Handbook Additions
February 22, 2011 07:42PM
Russ3523 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I agree with Gilligan and John. Don't heap even
> more work on the TDs. If a player changes
> divisions, too bad. Deal with it.
>
> rWc3523


Russ this is not anything new here. Like I said lasonde did it for years. He always asked the td to move his points and fees to the protected divison. And gilly if you have been asked by a lot of people then all you have to say is that it is well with in the rules. Not calling anyone an idiot just stating it is not anything new to dg. But am still curious what sort of actual feedback you all are looking for.

Re: Need Feedback - Possible Handbook Additions
February 22, 2011 08:02PM
We want feedback as to whether or not to include those additions into our handbook. We haven't been asked if it's okay for somebody to do it, but specifically what the rule on it was. A TD brought two scenarios to us which is what sparked the interest/concern in adding these.

_______________________________________________________________________________________________
Justin Tolbert
BHS Disc Golf [www.youtube.com]
Mobile, Alabama
Re: Need Feedback - Possible Handbook Additions
February 22, 2011 08:51PM
John K's way is the only realistic way. You still sign up in your lone division but the money gets combined. So in the end you are 1st in the division you WANTED to play in and you don't show up in the other division at all. You get 2 points in your division and that is it. So if you are PM and you are the only one, you still sign up for PM but the cash goes in the open pool and you compare your scores with the Open players to get paid but you are basically placing in PM and getting your 2 points.

Skews the results a little bit but that is the only realistic way to do it with our current system.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Take me to the window and understand
I got a rocking chair in my skin.
And every time the wind blows
It brings me down to meet the mood I'm in.
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