I don't think so!!!!!

___________________________________________________________________________
Keith "Sunshine" B

This is quite stupid. Why are yall wasting so much time on this forum? GET SPONSORS! Get TD's to follow rules. Get scores up faster. Think of ways to get the open division much deeper.


MAKE DISC GOLF THE PRIORITY, NOT THIS DUMB FORUM!


PS. The word in question is not a negative term like other racial terms, eventhough the magic book says so.

"HOGMAN"
HyZer Nation

Hogman for President. Glad somebody gets it.

That being said, I do commend the BOD for the work their trying to do. As AL says, I think the focus needs to be elsewhere though.

Quote
Allan
GET SPONSORS! Get TD's to follow rules. Get scores up faster. Think of ways to get the open division much deeper.

You were here when it went down... Get sponsors... like maybe advertising on the site? Gets shut down every time we bring it up. (though Darby had a plan ;) ). Scores faster? I did that, some people refuse to use the spreadsheet. (and John is getting them up fast regardless)... Ways to pay out Open division deeper.... umm again, you have seen the backlash if you suggest that someone does X with their tournament. "Do that at your tournament and let us know how it works" is the standard answer.

Finally "Get TD's to follow rules"... right... because we can get forum users to follow rules so well we should work on TD's eh?

What do you suggest? We sanction TD's from running events? How well will that go if we say "Jim Bob.. you let X happen at your event that had 120 people at it and was looked at as a HUGE success.... I'm sorry but you aren't going to be able to run any events for 6 months (including ones on the books already) because of that" Like that? I'm not sure what else we could do to make TD's "follow rules"... I mean we have SOME control over things here and CAN enact consequences of very little significance in the grand scheme of things... and people including TD's don't care. In fact we are chided for even trying that.

Allan you were already in our shoes and you wanted all of those things while you were here... HONESTLY and ABSOLUTELY no offense intended, but how many did you get accomplished? I say "no offense" because I know it isn't because you didn't try.

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I'm guessing that when you're banned, you can still read the threads.

I agree with you on this one, Keith. It's getting out of hand.


rWc3523

No Offensive taken.Gilligan you and I have had numerous conversations and I know you and I are on the same page with most of these issues, but this policing of the forum is dumb. You have said in person and on here on many different occasions that it is a PUBLIC Forum and is in that whole Free speech thing. I agree with the issue of threatening someone on here as a REAL problem, but why waste time with these things.

We had ideas to change the SN for the better and got run over a lot, but you guys seem to not feel it like I did. Thats good!. Make the SNPC the main priority and all the rest will fall into place. I love the saying "Four letter S word rolls downhill." If you make the SNPC so huge that all the BIG NAMES want to show up then it will make the series better.

I am, at my best, an Intermediate player and know that we cannot payout am divisions 50%. Huge player packs and 1st - 3rd place. I have always said pay 25% of AM, 33% of Adv, and 50% of pro divisions. Thats how the sport will grow towards better competition! We cannot AWARD THE MIDDLE!

Ok Im off my soap box.........For now.

"HOGMAN"
HyZer Nation

No matter what, the current BOD's legacy will be that they banned two great TD's from posting on a public forum for typing words allowed on public television.

bigal5657 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
"Ok Im off my soap box.........For now."

Can I have a turn? lol...

Seriously though, I hate the forum stuff. Like Sidebottom suggested, it should be in the hands of someone else while the BoD works on other things. Gilligan and I have both suggested things that would, in essence, "fix" the forum issue. Making this website consist of more than just a forum would take the attention AWAY from the forum. For example: If we had a website with tournament articles, pictures, video, course info, layouts, regional/club info, etc. the forum would be the "watercooler". Pretty much anything and everything would go on there. Currently, our "General Discussion" isn't really for general discussion. It's the place you MUST go to in order to get the information you need and questions answered regarding upcoming events. It shouldn't be that way. With the forum simply running in the "background" of the site, it would require little to no policing. Some editing may still have to take place for certain things: threats, pornography, spam, etc.
However, we are met with resistance to this idea from players who have been a part of the SN from the beginning.

>"GET SPONSORS! Get TD's to follow rules. Get scores up faster."

One at a time:
1. Sponsors I honestly believe that a new, ravamped website would help with that. With reports, pictures, videos, and articles from our SN tournaments readily available, we have something to present to sponsors to show them why it's worth their time and money to invest. We can have a portfolio handy and ready on the website SPECIFICALLY for sponsors. They can click on a link that details our statistics and demographics within the SN: how many players, age ranges, # of courses, average # of events, growth over years, etc. Sponsors want to know how much exposure they are going to get.

2. Get TD's follow rules Do you have a suggestion or example for this? Some of this is out of the realm or hand of the BoD. Unless you can have a BoD member at every tournament or someone who's willing to let us know that a TD isn't following rules, we can't do much. If we get more strict on TDs and enforcing more in that area, I know it will just bring more of the argument that the BoD is just running of TDs and players.

3. Get scores up faster The process we have in place works. After the Team Mobile fundraiser, I had the results on the forum thread the night of the tournament. I e-mailed a spreadsheet to John K., and he had them posted in less than 4 days. The delay came from my sending it to an alternate e-mail for him. Scores lie in the hands of the TD. Again, enforcing more on the TDs will bring more complaints.

I hate to say this, but I want to be honest. I feel as if the BoD is in a tough spot. We're trying to be consistent and interpret things in black and white, but we're asked to overstep that at times. In other scenarios, we're asked to implement procedures and help out in an area, but then come under fire for our attempts.

4. The Coon*** discussion I think this is a good example that goes to show how culturally diverse the SN is. It also goes back to my explanation of how we can't assume that everyone has the same standards and will be accepting of the same things. Every state has innate cultural standards. Even cities within the same state will have different cultural standards. Being born and raised in Mobile, Alabama, coon*** is a racial slur. I was brought up understanding that it was a racial slur. You may have some people in Florida who have never even heard the word. It's a difficult thing to say whether it is right or wrong, acceptable or unacceptable. Individuals living in LA may call each other that, but would it be considered an insult if someone from Maine called you that? Honestly, it's a cultural thing that I'm obviously NOT familiar with.

_______________________________________________________________________________________________
Justin Tolbert
BHS Disc Golf [www.youtube.com]
Mobile, Alabama

Rinkelstein Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> No matter what, the current BOD's legacy will be
> that they banned two great TD's from posting on a
> public forum for typing words allowed on public
> television.

I agree with you. Even if there were 5 great things that happened over the next 3 months, this would overshadow those things.

I think it then goes back to which players do we cater to? Before the guidelines were in place, we had several players calling for and requesting a cleaning up of the forum. On the other hand, we have players that are comfortable with the way it is.
No matter what we decide, SOMEBODY is going to be unhappy. Which group is it going to be?

In my opinion, that's what makes this so difficult...

_______________________________________________________________________________________________
Justin Tolbert
BHS Disc Golf [www.youtube.com]
Mobile, Alabama

How often is the word used, compared to your garden variety profanity?

Not very often, I'd wager.

Not that frequency should be a barometer of what words to allow/disallow, but I can't imagine too many people using it. The ones that would use it, are probably familiar with it and would not be offended by the context. I could be wrong.

Real profanity, not the synonym for mule, I can understand. Threats of violence, I can understand. But this is getting ridiculous.

rWc3523

Justin I have a lot of respect for you and what you guys are doing, mostly because I have been there. Each thing is not an overnight fix for sure, but the forum should not be the priority. If it is nothing else will ever get done because this is one of those problems that will never go away. Why waste time on a something that has no fix. Wrok on things that will make us better.

You have to as a manager/board of directors know what you good spots are and push them as far forward as you can. From making the things you know your good at the best they can be the less people tend to focus on the things you are not. Like that guy on here signature's says, "throw what you know". BoD......... Go after someting you KNOW will make us better overall. The forum is not it!

"HOGMAN"
HyZer Nation

Obscure obscenities is ok? What about in foreign languages? That gets to be almost more extreme than what we are currently doing.

And yes... people are angry and claim we are running off TD's/players. But that was the complaint that made us take these actions. We had GREAT TD's that were saying they were done with all of this because of how trashy the forums were.

Justin, it's amazing how far we have come from when I thought you would have sided with Kernan's coup... what only 3 months ago? Justin nailed every topic.

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Quote
Allan
If it is nothing else will ever get done because this is one of those problems that will never go away. Why waste time on a something that has no fix. Wrok on things that will make us better.

So just let everyone loose... total anarchy... and then we burn out the people that volunteer to keep the forum from being insane with threats and vulgarity. Yeah, John K did it for years... but ask him and he will tell you... it wears you out. AND the problem is usually a handful of people that just don't know how to stop. (I have been equally guilty of being one of those guys on certain issues). You know why I didn't ever stop and go... take a second and slow down. Because there was no consequences. The same reason several have done the same thing. I have actually been told that by some of these people personally. Why not go nuts, nothing will happen.

Well, it makes people get tired of cleaning up all the poop... and they quit doing it.

I'm actually all for anarchy in many cases... but that is only when you can trust that people will be civilized and respectful. A forum CERTAINLY isn't one of those places.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
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And every time the wind blows
It brings me down to meet the mood I'm in.
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Quote
Justin
4. The Coon*** discussion I think this is a good example that goes to show how culturally diverse the SN is. It also goes back to my explanation of how we can't assume that everyone has the same standards and will be accepting of the same things. Every state has innate cultural standards. Even cities within the same state will have different cultural standards. Being born and raised in Mobile, Alabama, coon*** is a racial slur. I was brought up understanding that it was a racial slur. You may have some people in Florida who have never even heard the word. It's a difficult thing to say whether it is right or wrong, acceptable or unacceptable. Individuals living in LA may call each other that, but would it be considered an insult if someone from Maine called you that? Honestly, it's a cultural thing that I'm obviously NOT familiar with.

I am going to do this post without letting my feeling over ride my thought process.

If you think of coondonkey as a racial slur then you are using the word in a negative context. I can call my mother a coondonkey and her laugh if we are joking at the house...ie "that dang coondonkey woman can eat some crawfish". But if I am mad at my brother because he owes me money and I say " that F'n coondonkey better pay me or I am going to kick his donkey" then I am using the term in a negative manner. Now my friend B-Hole says "that F'n coondonkey can't beat me" I am not made at him because he is my bud.....But if Dillon says" Keith is a dumb condonkey" Well him and I would have to have a talk man to man...

Bottom line is 84% of the BoD has no clue about the cajun culture and banning a term that is common here in our life without knowing the culture is plain arrogance!!!!!

___________________________________________________________________________
Keith "Sunshine" B

Keith,
I wasn't trying to be offensive. I apologize if it came across that way.
My understanding of the term coon*** isn't arrogance; it's IGNORANACE. I'm completely ignorant to how your culture views that word. Likewise, you would be ignorant to how MY culture and upbringing uses that word. It's one of those words where there is no universal understanding.

One glaring problem I have in this is that nobody approached us before we had our meeting. It was obvious before the meeting that the word was in question. A post was edited by an admin. Instead of someone sending the BoD a PM calmly explaining to us the cultural relevance of that word, we had people posting to the effect of, "I can't believe I'm getting a warning for saying coonbutt." That doesn't help us understanding your side. However, AFTER the meeting, we're flooded with this.

I can't possibly know what life in Louisiana is like unless someone from Louisiana were to explain it to me. I apologize for my ignorance.

_______________________________________________________________________________________________
Justin Tolbert
BHS Disc Golf [www.youtube.com]
Mobile, Alabama

That is my point Justin.....84% of the BoD doesn't know the culture. If you don't know something how can you make a rule about it? That is why I used the term arrogance and not ignorance. Ya'll go ahead and ban me, if the BoD think SN and this site will be better without my presents then ya'll need to do what you got to do. Remember, and this is not any type of threat what so ever, every action has an equal reaction.

___________________________________________________________________________
Keith "Sunshine" B

No offense, but did the use of "that" word require immediate action? It's not like a threat of violence. If the word is foreign to you, perhaps you should do some investigation first, then act. The forum will not fall into chaos because someone used a common Cajun term. There ARE things that need cleaning here, but IMHO this isn't one of them. But again, I'm just one person voicing an opinion.

rWc3523

Quote

That is my point Justin.....84% of the BoD doesn't know the culture. If you don't know something how can you make a rule about it? That is why I used the term arrogance and not ignorance. Ya'll go ahead and ban me, if the BoD think SN and this site will be better without my presents then ya'll need to do what you got to do. Remember, and this is not any type of threat what so ever, every action has an equal reaction.

It has nothing to do with anybody feeling your presence isn't needed or desired.
I still go back to why somebody didn't come to us before now with this? It was obvious that it was in question before the meeting, hence the reason why it was edited out of a post.

Now, in your personal opinion, should we make it ok for people to say it if they're just playing around with you? What about if it's meant as an insult? How would we tell?

_______________________________________________________________________________________________
Justin Tolbert
BHS Disc Golf [www.youtube.com]
Mobile, Alabama



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 03/04/2011 12:24PM by jtolbert.

Russ3523 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> If the word is foreign to you, perhaps
> you should do some investigation first, then act.
> The forum will not fall into chaos because someone
> used a common Cajun term.

I agree. I can't speak for the other BoD members, but the word wasn't foreign to me. The understanding of the word in LA was foreign to me though. Even if you drop the *** out of coon***, then you have a racial slur for African Americans.
This is going to require understanding and communication from BOTH sides.

> There ARE things that
> need cleaning here, but IMHO this isn't one of
> them. But again, I'm just one person voicing an
> opinion.

I agree there are bigger fish to fry.

_______________________________________________________________________________________________
Justin Tolbert
BHS Disc Golf [www.youtube.com]
Mobile, Alabama

Thanks, Justin. Overall, I think you guys are doing a good job. All this will pass eventually. I guess it will take some time to figure out what is really offensive and disruptive and what is just playful banter. I think we all know what TRUE profanity, insults and threats are. I consider Keith a friend and I think banning him over this is unfair, which is just an opinion.

rwc3523

I like Keith, too. I don't want him banned. I haven't wanted anyone banned.

But this does REQUIRE that certain questions be answered. Like I said, if we allow this word to be used, should we have consequences if it IS used as a slur? Even Keith said that he'd have a problem if Dillon called him that.

So, honestly, what do we do? Do we leave it open to interpretation? Or do we take a "better safe than sorry" approach and take interpretation out it, deeming it unacceptable on the public forums?

These are the questions that the BoD must consider in anything that we vote on. Since we represent the players, we need the players to chime in and give us feedback and their thoughts on something before we work on implementation.

_______________________________________________________________________________________________
Justin Tolbert
BHS Disc Golf [www.youtube.com]
Mobile, Alabama

Right... we react too fast for this but we don't react fast enough for that.

Let's just face it we can't do anything right. In fact, let's just say ALL we can do is everything wrong.

That is how all of this comes off. I got no problem with the "thankless" job, because I get plenty of people telling how much they appreciate what we are doing in person and via PM (and even on here believe it or not).

You said it yourself... if B-hole does it... .it's ok... if Dillon were to do it then you would be upset about it.

Same thing with the B word or A word or F word in some references... I've called all my friends any number of those... I've called my wife many of those... all in good fun and no one was upset. That doesn't make it ok to use them here because some people DO find them offensive.

That's the thing... if it CAN be seen as offensive by a large group of people then we really have to protect those people. Obviously we can't cater to every single person that says "He said 'retard' and I find that offensive." Which btw, would be a GREAT example of a word like coon_donkey... I use that word, my bro-in-law uses that word, my wife uses that word... no problem. No one is closer to that "problem" than we are. But walk outside and say that to someone and they may get bent because they see it as negative. My bro-in-laws did a video calling for the boycott of NDSS when they called for a boycott of Tropic Thunder because of their use of the word retard. It was just retarded... they actually counted how many times they used the "R word" in the movie.

Should that word be not allowed on the forums? Maybe not... maybe we need to determine that. I know this much as much as I would find it REALLY ridiculous to make that word a banned word. I'd just abide by the fact that it was. These are the rules. It really isn't killing anyone to not be able to say coon-donkey is it? Retarded... maybe... terrible? Not really.

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For the record Russ... I typed that while you were typing your last response.

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Gilligan Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> For the record Russ... I typed that while you were
> typing your last response.

You need faster fingers.

_______________________________________________________________________________________________
Justin Tolbert
BHS Disc Golf [www.youtube.com]
Mobile, Alabama

Quote
Allan
Justin I have a lot of respect for you and what you guys are doing, mostly because I have been there. Each thing is not an overnight fix for sure, but the forum should not be the priority. If it is nothing else will ever get done because this is one of those problems that will never go away. Why waste time on a something that has no fix. Wrok on things that will make us better.

You have to as a manager/board of directors know what you good spots are and push them as far forward as you can. From making the things you know your good at the best they can be the less people tend to focus on the things you are not. Like that guy on here signature's says, "throw what you know". BoD......... Go after someting you KNOW will make us better overall. The forum is not it!

This is where it gets even more tricky. Do we abandon the forum guidelines, scrap them completely, and focus on other things? If we do, we'll then have all of the backlash of starting something and dropping it. Next, we'll receive the responses from the players who wanted the guidelines and start receiving complaints about how we'll "never have sponsors with the way the forums are."

Maybe I just think too much... lol.

I do agree that the forum should be the least of our concerns.

_______________________________________________________________________________________________
Justin Tolbert
BHS Disc Golf [www.youtube.com]
Mobile, Alabama

no you take the responsibility off the bod's shoulders and develope a group to police the forums. or if not yes drop all this crap and let it dissolve by it's own lack of interest which will happen because of the ignorance that is coming out of it.

mike sidebottom Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> no you take the responsibility off the bod's
> shoulders and develope a group to police the
> forums.

We looked into that and only had 2 people step up to volunteer.

I'm working on something right now that I'm going to propose for Forum Guidelines. Look for it soon in the BoD section. I'll need feedback.

_______________________________________________________________________________________________
Justin Tolbert
BHS Disc Golf [www.youtube.com]
Mobile, Alabama

Quote
Justin
Now, in your personal opinion, should we make it ok for people to say it if they're just playing around with you? What about if it's meant as an insult? How would we tell?

I do not think it can be interpreted either good or bad in the written form.... I think it has to be spoken and used with tense in order to be able to decide if it is a slur against anyone of cajun culture.

Quote
Gilly
You said it yourself... if B-hole does it... .it's ok... if Dillon were to do it then you would be upset about it.

You are correct about that. I was just trying to think of someone who everyone knew I didn't like by bring Dillon into the analogy ....Bad choice on my part.

I am through with this conversation do what ya'll want to do.......just let me know when it starts so i can count the 30 day with baited breath for my return....

___________________________________________________________________________
Keith "Sunshine" B

I didn't think it was a bad example Keith... I thought it was a good one.

Quote
Justin
You need faster fingers.

Less distractions and less to say. I type plenty fast enough now.

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SB
or if not yes drop all this crap and let it dissolve by it's own lack of interest which will happen because of the ignorance that is coming out of it.

We weren't asked to do this because it just dissolved. The forums were out of control and had no structure whatsoever. That needed to change. Just like with lots of change... people reject it. This is for the good of the series and I don't think anyone can legitimately argue against that.

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Take me to the window and understand
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And every time the wind blows
It brings me down to meet the mood I'm in.
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