So, I'm trying my best to get a handle on what the majority of the forum users want. If you've been a part of helping us discuss the forum guidelines, please check the following link and give me your thoughts. What would you include or remove? I've tried to "narrow down" the guidelines to make it less wordy but still include all of the material.

[docs.google.com]

I've got a side-by-side comparison of the guidelines - old and proposed.

Some things that I, personally, would want to add would be using blaspheming terms in regards to religion. However, I didn't include that since this isn't all about me. I do want the thoughts of the players though.
We do need to be considerate of other people. Please keep that in mind.

Let me explain why I placed this line in the Language section: "Due to our evolving and expansive language, there may be words that are not listed but could be considered extremely offensive. In this case, the BoD reserves the right (by a majority vote) to edit a word in a post. Reposting this word is not allowed."
In these situations, the user would NOT receive a warning unless they reposted the word. Sometimes, we can just be ignorant to what is offensive or not.

Does this seem more fair?

Let the constructive criticism begin!

_______________________________________________________________________________________________
Justin Tolbert
BHS Disc Golf [www.youtube.com]
Mobile, Alabama



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 03/04/2011 03:01PM by jtolbert.

I think it has more thought to it. Is it perfect? probably never will be. I think if you give most people a clear idea that we want a clean forum they will follow. I don't think nit picking over ever form of a word and treating the users like 7th graders is helping anyone. Hopefully thing will be better when my 30 days are up......wasn't that a song 30 days in the hole?!

___________________________________________________________________________
Keith "Sunshine" B

Humble Pie

"30 Days in the Hole"

[www.youtube.com]

And I agree Keith.

rWc3523

That's it Russ......

___________________________________________________________________________
Keith "Sunshine" B

Well, we expressed that we wanted a clean forum, and it still didn't help. The problem came from the vague guidelines, I believe.
In retrospect, looking at the specific problems we've had, this was the best that I, myself, could come up with. When the guidelines read, "No Profanity," we didn't have any more f-bombs, s-words, etc. However, we still had a** floating around. So, it's obvious that the major consensus in SN land is that a** should be acceptable. It tells me that everyone respected that the f-word and s-word wasn't kosher.

I'm going to suggest that the BoD review the guidelines and reconsider them based on the areas that we've had issues arise. If we can come to an agreement as to what a MAJORITY of the SN would find fair, we should post these on ALL forums for ALL forum users to see for a particular period of time. During that period of time, any concerns about the guidelines should be brought to us to review.

Ideally, nobody should cry foul after the guidelines have been reestablished because they had their time to make their thoughts known. Again, that's just the "ideal" situation.

_______________________________________________________________________________________________
Justin Tolbert
BHS Disc Golf [www.youtube.com]
Mobile, Alabama

And everybody didn't understand why I voted "yes with protest" to the original guidelines. Maybe I wasn't just being a stubborn jerk... maybe I had a GOOD idea this is how it would pan out as written.


One thing I do not understand about the current situation. The a word has ALWAYS been filtered since before I was around... it was NEVER complained about. So why all the outrage now when we actually enforce what has ALWAYS been. I understand the coondonkey version... as a matter of taste/culture. But half donkey is very much no different than just regular donkey... so why the out cry over something that has NEVER been acceptable?


Also... Justin, blaspheming ... you mean like suggesting that the Earth revolves around the sun and not the other way around? blaspheming is an EXTREMELY subjective idea. NOTHING I do is blaspheming in my book, but almost EVERYTHING I do is blaspheming in another's.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Take me to the window and understand
I got a rocking chair in my skin.
And every time the wind blows
It brings me down to meet the mood I'm in.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

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Gilligan Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Also... Justin, blaspheming ... you mean like
> suggesting that the Earth revolves around the sun
> and not the other way around? blaspheming is an
> EXTREMELY subjective idea. NOTHING I do is
> blaspheming in my book, but almost EVERYTHING I do
> is blaspheming in another's.

My bad. I need to be more specific. If I were to add my $0.02 to the guidelines, I would suggest making the more offensive version of "gosh darn" unacceptable. But, that may just be me. I didn't already include it because I may be the only one that would be offended by that pairing of the words.

_______________________________________________________________________________________________
Justin Tolbert
BHS Disc Golf [www.youtube.com]
Mobile, Alabama

How about you use the same guidelines established by the FCC for cable television. Oh, and in my book, banning the use of god @#$%& is about as bad as implementing sharia law.

technically the D word is already not allowed and has never been allowed since the filter was put in place.. WAY back when.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Take me to the window and understand
I got a rocking chair in my skin.
And every time the wind blows
It brings me down to meet the mood I'm in.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

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Dang, I didn't even notice that I got censored.

Well, with my proposal, the d-word and the a-word would be considered acceptable.
The FCC has 2 sets of guidelines depending on what time of the day it is. I figured allowing the d-word and the a-word would be the two words that they allow no matter what time of day it is.
Also, it's hard to use the same guidelines that the FCC has established because they are so vague. [www.fcc.gov]

_______________________________________________________________________________________________
Justin Tolbert
BHS Disc Golf [www.youtube.com]
Mobile, Alabama

My thoughts on what might help solve this forum problem for the most part, and allow the BoD to concentrate on managing/improving the SN's instead of playing Nanny all the time. I really don't think as many people delve into this site and see some the shenanigans that go on here as much as some people are worried about (see #1).

1. A more content rich site that has alot less focus on the forums in gerneral. This has been discussed and suggested before, but nothing has ever been done about it. It is way over due, this site is way behind the times and dated. I know this will require alot of time, effort and expense, but it is an investment that I think would be well worth it. Think about the way this website looks compared to some of the other disc golf related sites out there. This one is a joke (no disrespect intended). If you had a vibrant home page and web site with videos, articles, interactive stuff, course maps etc., most people would never even go on the threads, except maybe for some tounament info, which leads us to #2.

2. Tournament info threads should have their own section, seperate from general discussion. Tournament info threads should be held to the highest standard of etiquette and have a 0 tolerance and continuous, instantaneous editing/removing of any posts that violate the SN guidelines in even the slightest way, or have thread drift, or anything else that detracts from information about, and the polite adult discussion of, the actual tournament and things relating to that tournament. Keep the the tournament info threads clean, professional, and on topic for everybody. Anything else people want to talk about can be done on the General Discussion and Private threads

3. Here's where it gets a little dicey. As far as discussion in general on the SN' forums goes, you have 2 opposing forces. You have the BoD and some of the players that want a Disney-like fairy land world of political correctness on the forum on the one hand. And on the other hand, you have the hard core, in many cases old school, posters who want to be able throw some %$#@@#$ and !@$#% around, as well as be obnoxious or humerous or distasteful or rude or talk smack or act like a donkey's rectal void or whatever. You're gonna have to figure out how to balance those 2 out, because both of those viewpoints are legitimate wants and needs by different sets of players. I don't have a real good solution for that, maybe you could have seperate G rated and R rated general discussion areas, the G rated version similar to what is being attempted now, and the R rated one would have much laxer standards, kinda they way things used to be around here. Keep the X rated Private Discussion for the chest pounding neanderthals to spout whatever they care to in. Maybe have a whole different web site, or multiple web sites for discussion.

In any case, I bet if you only implemented #1 and #2, you would greatly improve the traffic and user enjoyment of the SN site, and expose disc golf in a better light to the general public and sponsors, while at the same time reducing the odds of the gen pop and sponsors even being exposed to anything "negative" that might be buried in the general discussion area.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 03/04/2011 08:21PM by CrispyCritter.

jtolbert Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Gilligan Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > Also... Justin, blaspheming ... you mean like
> > suggesting that the Earth revolves around the
> sun
> > and not the other way around? blaspheming is
> an
> > EXTREMELY subjective idea. NOTHING I do is
> > blaspheming in my book, but almost EVERYTHING I
> do
> > is blaspheming in another's.
>
> My bad. I need to be more specific. If I were to
> add my $0.02 to the guidelines, I would suggest
> making the more offensive version of "gosh darn"
> unacceptable. But, that may just be me. I didn't
> already include it because I may be the only one
> that would be offended by that pairing of the
> words.

I have no problem with that Justin......

___________________________________________________________________________
Keith "Sunshine" B

Great ideas Crispy.
That's something that Kevin and I have brought up multiple times. We're actually going to look into getting our current host to try and do a redesign for it with a little more "direction" and input from us. He's doing us a huge favor right now with the hosting.

_______________________________________________________________________________________________
Justin Tolbert
BHS Disc Golf [www.youtube.com]
Mobile, Alabama

We talk about updating the forum at nearly every meeting, but we never start to finalize or take the next step. This is honestly out of my "computer" ability, but I am COMPLETELY on board. I too feel like if there was richer content and more information, then there would be less "free time" to wonder and create "rich" content.

WEBSITE UPDATE....has been added to the top of the agenda for next meeting. We'll save the forum violations for the end ;)

We make some guidelines up... propose them a year ago. No one says anything.
We put them up for review again... no one says anything.
We put them in place. A few gripes.
We enforce them, crying starts.
Now we are dealing with everyone crying and "making stands" about guidelines that no one complained about really.
Hey, you guys are spending too much time on these guidelines. (we agree.)
Hey, you guys need to change the ban period it's too long. (we waste more time).
Hey, you guys are spending too much time on these guidelines. (we agree.)
More people push the envelope. (we would spend ZERO time on this if everyone would just behave themselves.)
Hey, you guys are spending too much time on these guidelines. (we agree.)
Hey, you guys need to figure something out, we don't like the way this is working.
Hey, you guys are spending too much time on these guidelines. (we agree.)

As you see... we DON'T want to spend so much time on this... BUT, you guys keep complaining at ever step of the way. How about this... just don't break the rules and if you do "slip" then just be more careful and you your grace period will be over in no time. We don't want to ban anyone anymore than you guys want to be banned.

Where's Rodney King when you need him?

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Take me to the window and understand
I got a rocking chair in my skin.
And every time the wind blows
It brings me down to meet the mood I'm in.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

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i think some of you are enjoying every second of this; let it go and it will go away. if not i will be the first to say im wrong; just let it go and go do your job. please don't take what i say as a shot at anyone person; just try it go on about business at hand and let the folks police the forums themselves; and for those of us who complain about what someone else says on here; i agree with gilley just stop doing it; stop cussing , stop the threats, and stop with the off color photos, just stop.

But that's the thing Mike... If they would just "police themselves" then we would have never had to had these guidelines drawn up.

I certainly never wanted them... I have to pause as I type and make sure I'm following what I think are some silly rules but that is the same as when I have a disc sitting one foot from the basket at a tournament. I have to putt out from behind that disc or putt a mini down to hole out even though I know I won't miss that shot EVER. I think the rule is silly, but it is the rule, so I play by it.

We didn't have rules before and it certainly didn't police itself.

I personally think it's retarded that when someone is told "this word is not accepted" that other people would come on here and use it purposefully. It's rather disc respectful to the sport if you ask me. Just the same as if you were to tell me "I'd rather you not spit in my trashcan and go outside if you need to spit." and I said "That's stupid... it's just a trashcan!" and then me and my friends all walk up and spit in the trashcan. Though that may be a stupid rule to a lot of people, it would be easy enough and the respectful thing to do, to just abide by the rules of your house and not break a silly rule. Especially when it doesn't hurt anyone to abide by the rule.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Take me to the window and understand
I got a rocking chair in my skin.
And every time the wind blows
It brings me down to meet the mood I'm in.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

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Mike,
I don't take any offense to what you said. I agree with you.
Unfortunately, in this situation, implementing these guidelines IS part of our job. When we had so many users coming to us to "clean up the forums," the BoD did the best they could to make that happen. Now we have basically sides to this: one side feels as if they're being treated like 3 year olds, and the other side abides by the guidelines and keeps things kosher.
My proposal is an attempt to find a middle ground between those 2 groups. If you go back and look at the "problems" we've had since our initial guideline enforcement, most of the violations have been with the word a**. Many players have cried out that they feel that word isn't THAT bad. I would agree. Personally, I don't use it. But it doesn't bother me as much as the f-bomb.
I don't want to completely abandon the guidelines. If there are no consequences in black and white, how can you "encourage" the forum users to keep it clean? Plus, it would feel like we're just giving up on something that many players requested us to act on. I don't want us to have to just "give up."
I honestly feel that we wouldn't have many problems with these proposed guidelines. It allows room for players to claim ignorance to a word that shouldn't be used. It's also specific about some profanity that shouldn't be used.

We all have to communicate to figure out what's going to be best.

_______________________________________________________________________________________________
Justin Tolbert
BHS Disc Golf [www.youtube.com]
Mobile, Alabama

Though I do find it interesting that the donkey word has NEVER been allowed since Brian put in the filter (I don't know how long ago that was... over 4 years)... Now all of a sudden everyone is crying that they can't use a word that they have NEVER been allowed to use before anyway.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Take me to the window and understand
I got a rocking chair in my skin.
And every time the wind blows
It brings me down to meet the mood I'm in.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

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Check this out [www.sndg.org]
Shane suggesting the idea back in 2009 to revamp the site....

_______________________________________________________________________________________________
Justin Tolbert
BHS Disc Golf [www.youtube.com]
Mobile, Alabama

For the record the filter has been up since at LEAST April of 2006.

[www.sndg.org]

Warning, some circumventing in there.

It is always good to go back and look at how not much has changed after all these years.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Take me to the window and understand
I got a rocking chair in my skin.
And every time the wind blows
It brings me down to meet the mood I'm in.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

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MADGA Top10 Bag Tag database
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I fired my assistant today.


Waiting for my warning.

JABBA


it MUST be the plastic