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Minutes for 5/2/12 Meeting

Posted by jtolbert 
Minutes for 5/2/12 Meeting
May 02, 2012 09:11PM
Members in Attendance: Leslie Zurowski, Pat Barnes, Eric Day, Justin Tolbert

Topics:
Ratings:
-We are receiving quotes on a ratings system for the SN.
-It's still in the early stages and an exact model or system hasn't been specified
-Details will be available at a later date

BoD Nominations
-We are extending the deadline for BoD nominations in the hopes of receiving more nominations

Dual Sanction/Brad Hammock
-The PDGA will allow Brad Hammock to play in a dual-sanctioned event
-In this situation, Brad Hammock will not receive any SN points nor will he be reflected in our results
-In a dual-sanctioned tournament, it is ultimately at the TD's discretion as to whether or not to allow him to play
-However, in an SN only sanctioned tournament, he will NOT be allowed to play

Trophy Finishes
-Addressed a concern a player had about being able to change divisions after a trophy win
-We approved section 1.3 of the new handbook in January. A player cannot move down to a lower division if he/she has accepted any finishing award in the past 4 tournaments [www.sndg.org];

_______________________________________________________________________________________________
Justin Tolbert
BHS Disc Golf [www.youtube.com]
Mobile, Alabama
Re: Minutes for 5/2/12 Meeting
May 04, 2012 07:38AM
That sucks...lol...I just don't see how a trophy would count....The difference between am and pro is pro gets money. A professional is someone that gets paid for what they do in my oppinion. I can not buy anything with a trophy....I am a afraid people wont even move up on trophy only events...Its all good though. Thanks for bringing it up in yalls meeting.

Since it was not posted in the winnings and no proof other than me pleading guilty.... Does it count in my case?
Re: Minutes for 5/2/12 Meeting
May 04, 2012 01:14PM
Come on Dustin. You already know it's the cash you took that made you Pro. No trophy can make anyone a SN Pro.

A win in Pro can keep you a Pro, but only if you accept a prize for it. If there is anything wrong with the rule it is being allowed to move down by declining a 1st place prize. You didn't do that either, so I give you credit for making an honorable decision on that. Don't spoil it. Own it.

I am curious about how the Hammock thing popped up again.
Re: Minutes for 5/2/12 Meeting
May 04, 2012 01:28PM
Its all good i just know a lot of people get away with it and other things with no penalty and im not going to lol....its all good....
Re: Minutes for 5/2/12 Meeting
May 04, 2012 01:35PM
"I am a afraid people wont even move up on trophy only events"

So if you find someone with that fear the honorable thing to do is to let them know accepting a trophy will not make them a Pro.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 05/04/2012 01:36PM by Discjazz.
Re: Minutes for 5/2/12 Meeting
May 04, 2012 02:11PM
Any BOD,
Please post a few examples of a when a "Pro" player is eligible to move down or an "Am" player playing up and remaining an "Am".
Also, explain why an Am player playing as a Pro in a Charity/Benefit Tournament cannot receive a trophy. Some cases may be just to get Pro points to be eligible for he SNPC and not be tagged a "Pro" player for the next six months or four tournaments. Or to fill a void in a "Pro Division" that must meet minimum requirements to form such division.
Is it not true that even a "Rec" player can receive a "finished" award such as a trophy and remain a "Rec" player.
Just asking as a TD to get clarification so I can explain at my next tournament.
Re: Minutes for 5/2/12 Meeting
May 04, 2012 02:26PM
Joey, I'll honor your address to "Any BOD" by not answering your questions. However I will caution that answers from "Any BOD" member might be incorrect, whereas an answer from "the BOD" is always correct even if they disregard the rules. So far as I have seen though, "the BOD" is following the rules to the letter. Props to the BOD.
Re: Minutes for 5/2/12 Meeting
May 04, 2012 04:56PM
OK,
Correction:
Can any currrent Southern National Board of Directors answer the above questions.
Anonymous User
Re: Minutes for 5/2/12 Meeting
May 04, 2012 08:52PM
Joey, excuse that lawyer Jedi mind talk. He only pretends to know what he's talking about.
Re: Minutes for 5/2/12 Meeting
May 04, 2012 09:15PM
read about a pro and an am in the dictionary
I just want an example that we can all understand.
Re: Minutes for 5/2/12 Meeting
May 04, 2012 09:34PM
Sorry I wasn't clear Joey. The point I was trying to make is that you might not get the correct answer from an individual BOD member. If you want a reliable answer it is in the new rules or it is a decision by the BOD as a whole by vote. Anything else is just an opinion, whether it be that of a single BOD member, your's, mine or Dillon's. We all have the right to expect the BOD as a whole to follow the actual clear language of the rules and they have so far as I know. I would not be able to say that if I had not read the new rules. The rules answer all your questions clearly in my opinion.
Re: Minutes for 5/2/12 Meeting
May 04, 2012 10:58PM
Great!!! All the rest of has to do is spend 100k on law school and we can understand the rules also!!!

___________________________________________________________________________
Keith "Sunshine" B.

"You are truly one miserable human being."
Alxtgr
Re: Minutes for 5/2/12 Meeting
May 04, 2012 11:42PM
The rules do have a level of complexity. That is why I keep running around these threads answering questions about them. If someone doesn't want my answers I respect that too, by not answering. Directing a question to a board member or the board as a whole means the asker does not want my answers. No problem for me but I still think the answers are in the rules.
Re: Minutes for 5/2/12 Meeting
May 05, 2012 07:11AM
Joey Ingle Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Any BOD,
> Please post a few examples of a when a "Pro"
> player is eligible to move down or an "Am" player
> playing up and remaining an "Am".
> Also, explain why an Am player playing as a Pro in
> a Charity/Benefit Tournament cannot receive a
> trophy. Some cases may be just to get Pro points
> to be eligible for he SNPC and not be tagged a
> "Pro" player for the next six months or four
> tournaments. Or to fill a void in a "Pro
> Division" that must meet minimum requirements to
> form such division.
> Is it not true that even a "Rec" player can
> receive a "finished" award such as a trophy and
> remain a "Rec" player.
> Just asking as a TD to get clarification so I can
> explain at my next tournament.

I'm going to answer as any member of the Board and not as the view of the board, I don't want to anger DiscJazz by letting you assume it the boards view ;)

Anyway Pro player Who has played a SN "singles" qualifier event and Received a finishing award (Cash, Trophies, Basket full of moon pies...ect), from his overall performance (Ctp's, ace pot, or any other non finishing award does not count). This player may move back down to the Adv division after completing 4 SN "singles" events without receiving a finishing award. ***A player may choose to opt out of their cash award for a non cash award once every 6 months, this award does not count as a finishing award. ONCE every 6 months***

Adv player moving up to pro... An Adv player moving up to the Pro division and does not receive a finishing award, may drop back down to adv at any time.
An adv player, playing Pro that is eligible to receive a finishing award may either "A" accept the finishing award and now be know as a Pro player until they are eligible to drop back down as above stated. Or "B" Choose to opt out of the finishing award by turning down cash for a non cash award as stated above.

Am to Adv, If an AM player moves to Adv, this player may only choose to not accept any award to retain the Am status. If he takes any finishing award then he is know as an Adv player until he is able to move down via 4 event rule

Rec to Am, same as Am to Adv.

Any questions feel free to ask.
Re: Minutes for 5/2/12 Meeting
May 05, 2012 10:10AM
Thanks for proving my point.
Anonymous User
Re: Minutes for 5/2/12 Meeting
May 05, 2012 06:35PM
I'm not a lawyer but I did stay in a holiday Inn express last night.
Re: Minutes for 5/2/12 Meeting
May 06, 2012 05:03PM
Eric and Discjazz,
Thanks for the answers and examples.
As a TD let me give you a example:
Bob and Bill are new to disc golf and play Am Division, I am the TD of a Charity/Benefit "trophy only" Tournament, it is getting close to closing registration and only one pro is registered, after driving 60 miles to the tournament he is somewhat upset because no other pro's are present due to the fact it is a benefit (no cash payouts) but wants to play.
Bob and Bill decide to play pro because they are good friends with the pro. I have three trophies per division and give them all out during the awards ceremony. Are Bob and Bill considered pro's after their second tournament ever? Did I do the the right thing by letting them "play up" just to fill a division and tell them they will still be considered Am's after the tournament because it is a benefit tournament and no cash payouts exist.
By the way the pro was trying to work his way back down to Adv status by "not cashing" since it was a "trophy only" tournament and trying to get to four "not cashing" pro tournaments.
Post your thoughts.
Re: Minutes for 5/2/12 Meeting
May 06, 2012 10:05PM
Bob and Bill are still Ams because they did not take cash or the equivalent.

The pro is in a different situation. Did he take Pro cash or the equivalent at some time in the past? Did he take any Pro award in the 4 events before your event? What was the date of your event?

Assuming he was still Pro classified and the new rules apply to your event, we have to determine whether he got his trophy due to the win or just because he showed up. It seems that you intended them to be finishing trophies before you knew the turnout. That doesn't exclude the possibility that you changed your mind before the awards were given. Are the trophies exactly the same? Do the trophies have 1st, 2nd, and 3rd on them? If he got something for his win, then he accepted a finishing award and will have to start over on his 4. It is purely up to the TD whether or not an award is given for a finish, but if it says 1st Place on it and the others don't that is going to be hard to argue with.

It may not seem fair to the Pro because he was ignorant of the new rules which are not optimally published.

Either way it is a great example of why the precise language of the rules is important.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 05/06/2012 10:10PM by Discjazz.
Re: Minutes for 5/2/12 Meeting
May 07, 2012 08:14AM
I just don't agree with the words "finishing awards" in the rules because in most Charity/Benefit tournaments or "trophy only" tournaments there are awards for all divisions and someone would get classified wrong for playing up. According to the dictionary a professional gets paid money, not in trophies.
Just my thoughts,
Thanks again
Re: Minutes for 5/2/12 Meeting
May 07, 2012 09:36AM
Ok but I do not understand your disagreement. It is not possible to become classified as a Pro in a trophy only event. You cannot be forced to play Pro unless you accept cash or the equivalent. You cannot be classified wrongly as a Pro due to a trophy only event. It just cannot happen, so I don't understand your problem with it.
Re: Minutes for 5/2/12 Meeting
May 07, 2012 11:21AM
I'm confused. Discjazz, doesn't the original post in this thread state that you are classified as a pro for a minimum of four tournaments if you accept any finishing award (trophies included) in that division?

_______________________________________________________________
Justin Dyess

Overdrive Disc Golf
We buy and sell new and used discs. Check out our website.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 05/07/2012 11:22AM by contrast.
Re: Minutes for 5/2/12 Meeting
May 07, 2012 11:30AM
contrast Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I'm confused. Discjazz, doesn't the original post
> in this thread state that you are classified as a
> pro for a minimum of four tournaments if you
> accept any finishing award (trophies included) in
> that division?


No it does not. It says you cannot "move down to a lower division if he/she has accepted any finishing award in the past 4 tournaments". If you have never accepted cash or the equivalent then playing in an Amateur division is not a move down because you have never been a Pro classified player.

I really don't understand the issue here. You cannot become a Pro by merely accepting a "finishing award". The only "finishing award" that can make you a Pro is cash or the equivalent. It is true that any "finishing award" can keep you a Pro for 4 more events, but only if you were already a Pro because you previously accepted cash or the equivalent.
Re: Minutes for 5/2/12 Meeting
May 07, 2012 12:39PM
"You cannot become a pro by merely accepting a finishing award"

But isn't that what the rulebook states?

1.3.1 A player not qualified for an amateur division due to having accepted a finishing award in a pro division (gained professional status)..."

To me that means that if you're an am and decide to play in a pro division and end up placing and winning a trophy, you have gained pro status and are no longer qualified for the amateur division. If I'm wrong, hopefully you can see why it's confusing.

_______________________________________________________________
Justin Dyess

Overdrive Disc Golf
We buy and sell new and used discs. Check out our website.
Re: Minutes for 5/2/12 Meeting
May 07, 2012 01:00PM
Your confusion appears to be coming from the fact that you are looking at reclassification when you don't need to. Always determine classification first. Until you know your classification, and decide you want a lower one, you don't need to be reclassified. You can play in a Pro division 100 times and never be classified as Pro unless you accept cash or the equivalent. See 1.2.1. Notice that 1.3 is for Reclassification, not classification. 1.3.1 does not say accepting a finishing award makes you a Pro. It says that "A player not qualified for an Amateur division due to having accepted a finishing award in a Pro division" can be reclassified. Go back to 1.2.1 and you will see that the only finishing award acceptance that makes you "not qualified for an Amateur division" is cash or the equivalent.
Re: Minutes for 5/2/12 Meeting
May 07, 2012 03:05PM
Well my trophy didnt say Open champion...it looked just like the am trophies....So i do not see it as a professional cash...
Re: Minutes for 5/2/12 Meeting
May 07, 2012 04:22PM
Once again though Dustin, you need to get your story straight if you want a straight answer. Your situation (reclassification) is not about "professional cash". It is about "finishing award". Why don't you just tell us why you were awarded the trophy? For reclassification purposes, like your situation and Joey's Pro, it's all about whether the trophy was due to your final score.

Whether an Open trophy looks like an amateur trophy would be immaterial IMO. If all Open players, or even the first X number that signed up, got identical trophies (not finishing place numbered), and there are no other relevant facts, I would think it would not be a finishing award.
Anonymous User
Re: Minutes for 5/2/12 Meeting
May 07, 2012 08:05PM
Discjazz, please excuse Dustin's poor English comprehension.
Re: Minutes for 5/2/12 Meeting
May 07, 2012 09:50PM
I appreciate you guys testing me so good. When your done give me a grade if you want to. I've been fired from way better jobs than this.
Re: Minutes for 5/2/12 Meeting
May 07, 2012 09:52PM
Discjazz Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I appreciate you guys testing me so good. When
> your done give me a grade if you want to. I've
> been fired from way better jobs than this.


Best line of the year!!!

___________________________________________________________________________
Keith "Sunshine" B.

"You are truly one miserable human being."
Alxtgr
Re: Minutes for 5/2/12 Meeting
May 08, 2012 08:48AM
I think you have the same problem. Everyone dislikes you and you still post on forums. Its all good though, i try not start personal issues by degrading others. I try to argue my point without making personal strikes.

Dillon Gourley Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Discjazz, please excuse Dustin's poor English
> comprehension.
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