Crow, I agree and when is the MG in BR I'd love to scope that out.
I don't think it's all about the shirts and discs. I know I would love to be feed a good meal(fat people like me usually do) and get some free beer or soft drinks (drunks like me usually do as well) and just be able to party a little and talk about that day's game. Plus, it would allow alot of the newer players to become part of the group in a social rather than competitive setting.

Seriously, everyone I've meet since I've played the game seems to just enjoy the game and enjoy most of the people their playing with. I know I don't go play to see how much "fun bucks" I can get, although I do try to be competitive. I just enjoy playing. I would say alot of people feel the same. Puting on a kick-butt players party might go further than handing out plastic, IMO.

word on the Rouster..........

buck up and go GROLSCH!! imho....

Griff

Glad to see somebody is listening.
The only problem I can see with it is that a golf disc doesn't hold much beer, while an Ultrastar will hold almost a whole pitcher.

i aggree too crow,i wanna be fed ,and if its possible i want the host to get me drunk.something tells me if you have the skill to place at the championships,you probably won enough friggin discs all year,show me some good food and drink and lets party,screw the latest disc,i want great memories.


"i am pure EVIL,now give me your funds"
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The proposal that the Am Tournament pay out 125% of entry fees and SNDG contribution sounds great, but what does this really mean? I submit for your consideration a few thoughts on the matter by looking back at the 2004 Am Championship we hosted in light of this proposed requirement.

Total Players – 146
Total Entry Fees - $6,470
Total SNDG Amount - $5,442

Entry Fees + SNDG = $11,912

125% of total - $14,890

25% proposed to be added by club - $2,978
$1/head to Bud Hill - $146
$1/head to State Park - $146
Printing - $85
Stamp Artwork - $100
Hole Sponsor Signs - $90
Porta Potties - $216
Misc. Expense - $100

Total amount added by Club - $3,861. This does not include potential additional expenses such as ice, SNDG tag prizes, banners or those demanding food and drink free of charge.

Let’s assume that the Club can get the prizes at 70% of the retail value. That means that the Club must place and order for $10,424 some weeks in advance of the tournament plus have the contingent liability of $883 or a total liability of $11,306 before the first dollar has been received. To me, this is a huge amount of money. What if the weather turns bad? What if gas goes to $5 a gallon? What if there is a big fall-off in attendance? What if (as some have demanded in the past) there is a natural disaster and the tournament is canceled? What if the unfounded accusations and personal attacks on this Forum have soured potential sponsors? As TD and President of the Memphis Club I would bear the ultimate responsibility for making the debt good regardless of mitigating circumstances.

Paying out 100% of the entry fees and SNDG money is reasonable. Saddling the host club with and additional 25% is onerous. It’s not just the additional 25% to the purse, but all the other costs that go into producing a first class event that have to come from somewhere. Jim Orum has mentioned on several occasions the hard lesson learned about guaranteeing adding $1,000 to the purse. You are mandating 3 times that amount in the example of our 2004 event.

The argument could be made that if you are not willing to accept a risk of this magnitude then you don’t need to host the Am Championship. Unless we could secure a major corporate sponsor like Wall Doxey has done I could not in good conscious recommend to the MDGC Officers and Board of Directors that we host another Am Championship under the requirements that have been proposed. Maybe Wall Doxey should host the next two or three Championships….that would suit me just fine, anyway.



The discussion of whether or not the host club would be allowed to make a profit should be considered if, and only if, the SNDG Board of Directors is prepared to make good any loss that might be incurred. As I have shown earlier, there is a substantial monetary risk assumed by the host club in staging a SNDG championship tournament; a risk that will be exacerbated by the guaranteed 125% payout of the guaranteed minimum income. Where there is the possibility of loss, there should be the potential of gain. Where there is no assumption of risk, there should be no expectation of reward. Is the SNDG Board prepared to underwrite the host club’s potential losses in order to guarantee that no profit will be made?

Having run most of the MDGC tournaments over the last 4 years I can proudly say that we have made a profit on most of them. In turn those funds have allowed us to put in the second course at Meeman Shelby Forest, replace damaged baskets, put in a new course at Shelby Farms, help maintain Bud Hill and host a string of great tournaments (if someone left feeling screwed, I have not heard of it). These profits have also allowed us to absorb the costs on those tournaments that were financial losers and make contributions to other tournaments, individuals and causes in need. None of this could have been accomplished by dues alone.


The proposal that the amount of SNDG money collected by division should be paid out by division seems to me to be an unnecessary complication of the bookkeeping. I can see where a small turnout in a given division could result in skewed payouts and generate hard feelings at best and major sandbagging at worst. I like the simple approach of SNDG funds paid out pro rata across the board; this is not really a major issue with me, but more of a minor aggravation.


In closing, I believe that 100% of the entry fees and SNDG money should be the guaranteed minimum payout in cash for pro tournaments or fair market value in prizes for Am events. I believe that where SNDG funds are involved a public accounting should be made within a reasonable time following the event. I believe that the selection of a host club should be made by the SNDG Board based on the commitments of their proposal and their past history of performance. I believe that risk and reward go hand in hand. I believe that the requirements to mandate “125% payout” and “no profit allowed” are ill considered and, if adopted, will ultimately prove detrimental to the SNDG championship series.

Gary Wagoner, President
Memphis Disc Golf Club

Gary, 125% is not hard to do at all, really 150% isn't hard to do. All you have to do is buy all discs as cheap as possible and give it all away. That's it, over 100% right there. $10000 worth of (for example) DX discs for $5/disc(is this about the cost?). You can get 2000 discs, give ALL of them away and put the price at $8/disc. That is $16,000 worth of prizes. 160%!!!!!!!!!!! I think champion plastic can be bought with a greater profit. Now this is my opinion and my calculations, but this is just how I see it.

Terry Zeringue




Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 11/28/2005 09:55PM by TheZinger.

4 dx
6 pro line
7-8 champion wholesale costs! I know that Memphis got them wholesale so there should not have been a problem:}

Terry, you are absolutely correct provided that:
1. Prizes are limited to discs alone (no baskets, no trophies, no bags or other gear)
2. No expenses
3. No profit for the host club.

In our Am Tournament we gave baskets to all first place finishers and to the second place finishers in am and am masters. Because of the depth of payout in some cases the winning purse did not cover the cost of the baskets. We gave them out anyway.

We also had some really nice plaques figured at actual cost (I have no problem with this requirement).

My primary concern is that the rules for running an Am Tournament will become so burdensome that no one will want to host it.

Gary

Gary, I find it hard to belive that Memphis was left without any money. I noticed that you did not list CFR's. they generate over 1k in profit so, that should cover a lot of what you listed. Once again bags, clothing and baskets can be bought at wholesale prices so there is plenty of ROI.
"Having run most of the MDGC tournaments over the last 4 years I can proudly say that we have made a profit on most of them" See you said so yourself! Where is the sponsorship money? I noticed you included cost of tee signs for sponsors but, did not show how much money was brought in. You also stated the club put in a certain amount of money but, once again the whole dynamics of a good tourney rely ON WHERE THE PRIZES COME FROM the cheapier the better.

Even with what happened this year they still showed the event paying over 125% so, had they not kept 1k and had they ordered factory direct the payout would have been even better.{ based on there numbers}
One question, why should the host club make money????? They are required to run an sn event during the year so they can make there money then.I doubt there will ever be a lack of host cities but, I could be wrong. Bob



Edited 3 time(s). Last edit at 11/29/2005 08:30AM by Tax Man.

sad. with the way memphis inflates its payouts, 250% would be a piece of cake. Oh SN Board O'Scum, i will come out of TD retirement and show y'all what 250% payout looks like for the SNAC if you would only let NO Team host just one SNAC. did y'all happen to see the 2005 Mardi Gras Madness payout? over $3,000 in cold hard cash to the pros, that you can't fudge like am payouts, and we still were just about at 200% payout at the end.

i guess the SN will just wallow in its own memphis forever. thanks for finally admitting how crooked you are though, gary. now if lafayette would come clean we'd all be better off.

Thanks for the input Gary. It is appreciated. I also believe that 125% is attainable, but without any additional sponsorship it will be challenging to reach and cover all additional expenses that aren't factored into the equation. The am championship host will have to be efficient in managing the sn fees as well as working to get more sponsorship or raise money through cfrs. I know that historically the am championship host hasn't gotten a large amount of sponsorship.

I think that preplanning by the host city, getting the best deals on merchandise, and getting the host city to obtain more sponsorship is realistic goals that can be reached. Will it discourage so cities from wanting to host a championship, possibly. Time will tell.

I think that a major issue that has to be resolved is should a host city make money from hosting a championship, because I think that even with the 125% requirement with sponsorship/fundraising the host will exceed this amount. Should they make money, in my opinion yes. Should the amount be capped or a limit set? In my opinion, yes but at what amount $500, $750, $1000? If we set a limit of profit where does the rest go back into the tournament, back to the sn?

I think that progress is being made and lessons are being learned which will benefit the sn championships. I don't think they should be treated like normal tournaments they should be special. But if we attempt to regulate everything are we tying the hands of the host city? There are lots of gray areas, are we starting to micro manage to much?

Opinions and comments are welcome.

John k

IMO the priveledge of host the SNAC is not to make money. Yes I said priviledge because that's what it is. The priviledge the host city gets is to show off your courses, show off the club, show off the way you can run a tournament. You show this off to all of the disc golfers that show up. Taking money for expenses isn't making money, but to take money to help put in more courses and thing like that is just wrong. This is the one tournament of the year that is the players tournament, not the host city's tournament. Every other tournament belongs to the host city, but not this one. The host city is supposed to put on a show for the players at the SNAC.

Terry Zeringue

How can this be considered Micro manage? I see it as helping out. Why shouldn't the board assit in ordering? It would help insure the lowest prices and probally a sponsor to boot!ONCE AGAIN THIS IS THE KEY and why we keep ignoring it is just plain silly. 125% is done by just about every event and now we are being told it cannot be done. Bulldukie! even the worst case as you put it 70% of retail allows for 30% profit. 25% back to the players and the rest for exepenses. When you are talking 12k in fees that is 600 for the host club:] That does not include sponsors or CFR's which could be another 1k=1600 for the host less your expenses still leaves you with a cool 700 or more:] I doubt seriously memphis or anyone would have to add money let alone 3k!
The board needs to be more involved and quit saying it would be micro managing when it would clearly looking aftre the players. Just my opinion which is backed by a history of events paying well over 150% without any player fees! bob

Mikey you are indeed classLESS. Mr Wagoner is one of the most organized and honest individuals I know. Isn't it nice how we are discussing a topic that needs discussing and you can't make a post without insulting somebody. Typical.

John k

you wouldn't know a criminal if he stole your disc out of the basket, JK.

i think the board should set the guide lines, after they posted them , everyone give feedback, then the board should decide what is best, i think the board buying stuff will be a big problem, maybe what we need is each hosting city turn in all the deals that went thru, so the new hosting city can see what went on the year before, i bet chris could send a book of what went good and what did not, so if each hosting city would do that, we should have no problems.each hosting city has a chance to do things the way they want as long as they follow the guide lines, if not they should not host any more snc.each hosting city has differnt things to offer, some have more staff than others, some have better pavillions and parks to work with,some have great cooks, so give them a chance to do what there players want done,if each city tries to out do the year before , we should have no problems, i know mobile will have it hands full trying to out do wall doxey, but we are pulling together and we will, and i know where ever it goes the next year that they would want to do better, most td and hosting cities try and do better than other td and hosting cities, that the great part of hosting a big event, gary and john you are two great people doing a great job at helping disc golf grow and the s.n. to, i and many players thank you both, maybe we all need to step back and see if we are helping or not, i know i have, may we all pull together, voice our opions and move on, if your not happy, get involve and get elected, now go ace one for me, jim

Jim, why do you think it would be big problem for the board to place the order???? I think we both know it would take about 5 minutes give or take and Innova gets the stuff to you in a few days. These could be sent to the TD directly. Most good events already use this method, hence the ability for bigger payouts. I know this takes away from the vendors but, they should have no problem selling at the championships, especially when they are combined. Maybe an incentive for the Host city to have an exclusive vendor and he in turn could sponsor the event. Once again this is my opinion and not all of the board agrees but, the future to Bigger and better events starts there!!!! bob

give up Boba!!! until Kittrell resigns, the SN is doomed to repeat his stupid mistakes. he just doesn't have a clue.

:O) Sorry Mike, had to put this image of the postman.

Terry Zeringue

gives new meaning to lick my stamps eh?

There were no CFR's for Memphis.....

There ARE a ton of expenses (at least in Memphis) that can't be avoided--akin to BR and their Park Commission stuff.

I'm not saying that 125% is not attainable....it IS....IF you have sponsorship.....

therein lies the fallacy of most of the reasoning.....

the Board needs to base the awarding of the Championship on the OFFERS MADE....the OFFERS MADE MUST include SPONSORS w/$$ in HAND....not--"we'll go and find some"....

DO YOUR HOMEWORK EARLY, get the sponsorships on paper/committed and then propose to be the host....

and SNDG Board....ORDER THE FRIGGIN' DISCS ourselves and be done with this VENDOR crap....they can make their $$ at EVERY OTHER EVENT!!

Feed the creeps....but check into liability issues before you start handing out beers.....imho......

Griff




Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 11/29/2005 10:25AM by Griff (CounselorGriff).

bob, we have no paid employess, that is the big reason, when we have burn out on our volunteers, we are going to be in big trouble,if we want to hire someone to do these things that would be great, find more ways ro raise money to pay bills and employees, then there goes the good deal,players need to think back to what happen to disc golf when alot of volunteer td got burn out, they stop running events in those cities, for disc golf to keep growing we need all kinds of td, we need the ones that do it for profit, the hosting city, hosting club, we need all these to keep this young sport growing,each event brings in new players that will travel to the other person event, it does not matter to most players if it is a club or not, as we grow more city or clubs will host their own events, but right now we need to keep growing,that how we got where we are today,, we still need to grow untill players must sign up early or be shut out,untill then we need to help each other,my events do well because you, mike, bill c , will, memphis and all other td and city put on events.one helps the other, it makes no sense to hurt the other guy because he is trying to help disc golf grow,now go ace one for me, jim

great post Griff! i still love you man. i love that line about sponsors should be in hand, not we'll go find some, like when Jim O was totally duped by Poplarville's alleged big bank sponsorship! now go figure out why Jim O and Kittrell are the two members of the SN Board O'Scum who've been there from the beginning and why they've run the SN into the ground, mike

Jim, this is the only event where I think the BOD needs to help! All other events have open season. No one wants to hurt anything. One more thing there are more events this year than ever before so, growth is not a problem:}
Griff, you are correct about the ordering and i am sure if you ask the players they would all agree!!!!! Maybe a poll is in order.

the thing to do is bring back the tread during that time, then think if you were poplarville would you want to give the s.n. even the time of day, then decide who to blame, the forum is a great tool if used right, each smart sponsor will come onto it and decide if they want to be part of the s.n. tour, have you help or hurt the s.n. , we all go to many events , that would be a great time to sit down and talk these things out, maybe pick a few large events and on saturday night have a meeting, once again, should we try and work together or keep accusing this one or that one, or spend our time trying to move forward, backing up will not help , but to says yes we made mistakes, but we did do some things right, now let see what we can do to move on.jim

yeah, could we bring up those threads where Jim O said that he was going to have cities bid on the 2004 championships, then Jim O just went and gave it to Poplarville without taking bids from anywhere else? could we do that Jim?

if the SN is going to move forward, Jim O and Kittrell need to RESIGN IN DISGRACE FROM THE SN BOARD. YOU F_D IT UP, YOU CONTINUE TO F IT UP AND YOU'LL ALWAYS F IT UP. Now go figure out how much of a cut Jim O will get from Mobile at the 2006 SNC's, mike

Mikey - you make me laugh.

mike let me know what i can do, we can not keep this up, we are now looking for the bad in people , when we should be looking for the good,if that my fault , then s.n players im sorry, let me know what i can do, if there a amount i can give , some kind of punishment let me know i will do it,what ever it takes mike if i let you down or anyone else during that time when i was doing everything i could keep s.n going , i did it by mistake, i never meant to hurt you mike or anyone else, i did what i thought was right, every year you would say it your last year running a tournament, maybe that stuck in my mind,everything happen pretty fast, i was ready to turn it over and i cant change nothing now, once again mike i quess i read between the lines and thought you were tired of running events,i really means this mike and anyone else, nothing was ever done to be mean to anyone, please let me know what i can do to get this s.n. moving forward again, jim

i just reread your tread mike,i will resign if the players want me to, but i have had it , using those words is uncalled for, please do not attend any event i run, im not banning you, you done nothing at my events to be banned, i do not care to be around anyone like you, i will also not answer any more post from you, it very sad a grown man would talk like you have to people, my god bless you, jim

jim, all you have to do is tell your puppet kittrell to get off his butt, call the SN Board into a meeting, and have them take the 2 or 3 hours it takes to get a plan in place for how the SN revenues will be allocated.

that's it jim, that's all it will take for me to vanish. forever. aren't you as tired as the rest of us hearing Kittrell's excuses year after year? don't think for a minute that if kittrell says jump that dumb guy and russ and mac won't say how high. and kittrell listens only to you Jim, so get him off his butt and get him working.

i'm sorry too for having to say the mean things i've said, but your legacy of corruption, and Kittrell continuing to look the other way as you say one thing and do another, is what has killed the fun of the SN.

now go put your puppet to work, mike