Southern National Doubles Championship Guidelines

The guidelines presented below are the minimum standards set forth by the Southern National Board. The host city of the SNDC is committed to running a championship level tournament for the players. The appropriate level of forethought and planning is required to make this representative of the culmination of a SN season.

1. A minimum of 2, 18 hole courses in excellent shape, appropriate for the level of competition.

2. All SN fees are turned over to the host city along with a breakdown regarding the amount that was collected for each division (in doubles tournaments). This information is provided by the SN Treasurer to the host city, SN Board and SN players vis the SN forum. All SN fees may be returned to the respective division or broken down by the number of participants. (Example $1000 in SN fees and 100 players would equate to $10 per player. Each divison would get an equitable amount of the SN fees with the larger divisions getting the largest share.)

3. Each Division should payout a minimum of 110% of SN fees and Entry fees collected, i.e. if $1000 in SN fees and Entry fees were collected for the Advanced division then $1100 should be paid out in fair retail value. (See 11 for definition of FRV)

4. Divisions offered: the minimum divisions offered will be Pro Men, Pro Women, Pro Master, Pro Grandmaster, Advanced Men, Am Men, Adv Masters, Am Masters, and Am Women. Other divisions such as Juniors can be offered if there are enough players to constitute a division as determined by the host.

5. What constitutes Payout?
...a. Payout includes the prizes given out to the top 35% (minimum) in the pro/advanced am divisions (Pro Men, Pro Women, Pro Masters, Pro Grandmasters, Adv Men, Adv Masters)
...b. Payout includes prizes given out to the top 45% (minimum) in the am divisions (Am Men, Am Masters, Am Women)
...c. Payout includes trophies in ACTUAL cost for each division.
...d. Payout includes the players package that is given out to all registered players in their respective division.
...e. Payout includes any prizes for contests that are broken down by division, such as putting, driving contests.
...f. Payout includes any prizes for CTPs that are broken down by division.

6. A players package may be provided at the discrection of the Host. Contents of the players package will be determined by the host. The mark up to retail value for items such as shirts and discs will be approved by the SN Board. Approval for other items in the players package in regards to what can be considered payout will be by the SN Board.

7. The tournament will be a minimum 3 rounds. There can be a cut after the 3rd round. Format to be determined by host in regards to types of rounds (i.e. straight best shot, best score, alternate shot, worst shot)

8. Each division will have trophies/plaques for 1st, 2nd and 3rd.

9. Sponsorship money: All sponsorship money raised by the host club can be designated as the sponsor/host chooses.

10. The host city will provide to the SN Board a complete accounting of the money taken in (i.e. sponsorship money, SN fees, entry fees) and money paid out giving actual cost of items with photocopied reciepts. Accountability is important.

(The SN Board will comminicate wiht the host to determine the best means of doing this, while we want to keep the process as simple as possible accountability is important.)

11. Fair Retail Value: This is the value of the merchandise at the average cost to a player buying from a vendor. The pricing of each type of disc used for payout(i.e. DX, Pro Line, CE) must be approved by the SN Board to ensure pricing is fair.

12. A minimum of 2 SN Board members will be present at the SNAC to ensure the quality of the event is maintained.

13. A minimum of two extra curricular events will be offered. Suggestions include:
...a. putting contest
...b. driving contest
...c. skils contest
...d. rings of fire
...e. mini course

16. The host city can profit from the tournament. A MAXIMUM of $500 can be made by the host city if ALL the SNAC guidelines outlined above (i.e. 110% payout) have been met.

17. Sponsorship exemptions: Sponsorship exemptions will be given to those individuals that dont have SN points. The limit of exemption is $200 for a player at the SNDC. Sponsorship can come from individuals or corporate. It is the discretion of the host city to deny sponsorship exemption if they deem the player applying for the exemption to be of pro caliber based on other tournament series such as the PDGA.

Sponsorship excemptions were raised to $400 cash only PER excemption. A player may only recieve one excemption for any one championship in a 2 year period. Edited 09/15/10

18. Eligibility: All players that have competed in an SN tournament that was an appropriate SNC qualifier and obtained the mimimum 2 points required (players that played in a nonpoints division such as Novice are eligible to register the last two weeks prior to the championship if the tournament isnt full at that point.)



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 09/15/2010 09:46PM by Hilltopper.

Not real sure if i will get a invitation to the am championships so I am hoping to find a AM MASTER partner for this one.Please post here if interested.

Why is this open to everyone? If it is why not add some of the other sn fees?

It only makes sense to add if it is based on having only one point. It makes no sense to me why everyone should be welcome if they have not contributed.

Anyone care to debate this issue?

i'll debate.

first, it's possible that a doubles event may not be held within reasonable driving distance from some people. therefore i agree with the rule that any SN points should be enough to qualify for the SN Doubles. i'll go a step further and say that i'd allow anyone with zero points to play in any SN championship, but that's not completely relevant and just my personal feeling.

next, it would be more work for JK & or Will or whoever tracks the points to split the SN points into SN singles points and SN doubles points. don't burden these volunteers with that. keep the SN simple, let's not screw things up by making 99 divisions like the silly PDGA.

finally, as far as the $2 fees being distributed at the SNDC to the divisions from which they were collected (ala the SNPC), i think that's not such a bad idea. i wouldn't force the volunteers to the work to determine that though, but you never know, they might just do it anyway.

My reasoning:

Any sn points qualifies you. If you were to limit it by saying you can only play if you have sn doubles points then the number of players that could actually attend decrease drastically from the 5377 players total that have played in sn tournaments so far this year to just the 705 that played in the doubles. Plus take into account those numbers are total numbers so the same player that played in 20 tournaments is represented 20 times in that total of 5377. So the number if you wanted to count just individuals that would probably be around 500-550 (I'm not going to count them). You would limit it further because not everyone is going to travel to this tournament so if I want to go but my partner that had doubles points didn't now my pool of potential partners is very limited. Then you would get the reciprocal, you have to have singles points (not doubles points) to play in the snac or sndc. I'm not keeping track of that.


The reasoning behind prorating the sn fees collected equally among the participants is because some of the divisions represented would have almost ZERO added money. Of the 705 players 133 were pro men, 2 pro women, 20 pro masters, 26 pro grandmasters, 134 advanced, 8 adv masters, 284 am men, 22 am women, 38 am masters, 28 novice and 10 jrs. Doubles tournaments aren't going to field the same numbers in each division just because of the nature of the tournament so the 4 masters players that would normally play masters in singles take their 2 masters teams and jump up to pro men.

If you prorate the money the divisions that fielded the most players at the 10 tournaments, ie pro men, adv, and am men, will still get the bulk of the added money pro rated-wise based on the divisions being larger at the SNDC then the other ones. You are taking some money out of am men, adv, and pro men for the other divisions but it's not that much.

Finally the added SN fee money over the first 2 years has been only $900 to this year $1334. Not a large amount given that some one day tournaments have raised and added that much. You can't increase that number either without taking more SN fees away from the SNAC or SNPC. I'm not inclined to do that because the SNAC and SNPC are our Premier events. I'd like to see the SNDC grow as well but to increase the payout for that event it is going to fall to the host city to generate additional sponsorship.

John k

Quote

18. Eligibility: All players that have competed in an SN tournament that was an appropriate SNC qualifier and obtained the mimimum 2 points required (players that played in a nonpoints division such as Novice are eligible to register the last two weeks prior to the championship if the tournament isnt full at that point.)

June 6, 2008: I've sent an email to Josh regarding this rule. I have made a request to "bend" the novice ruling to include others. I request the board to discuss this email and let me know!

[tupelodiscgolf.com]

Quote

4. Divisions offered: the minimum divisions offered will be Pro Men, Pro Women, Pro Master, Pro Grandmaster, Advanced Men, Am Men, Adv Masters, Am Masters, and Am Women. Other divisions such as Juniors can be offered if there are enough players to constitute a division as determined by the host.

So if the host determines that one team is enough for a division, that's OK? We'll be offering Juniors, and quite possibly splitting it between girls and boys which could knock us down to one or two teams. If my understanding is correct, that will be acceptable!

[tupelodiscgolf.com]

yep

Can a team play in the Master's division if one partner's age is less than 40?

For example, in the Advanced division ... one partner is 40, the other is 22. Can they play Advanced Master, or should they just play Advanced?

[tupelodiscgolf.com]



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 07/07/2008 08:23AM by Grayson Robbins.

Sorry but advanced only if they are under 40 ;o}~

That's what I figured. Thanksa for confirming.

[tupelodiscgolf.com]

Can anyone tell me the date of the 2010 SN Doubles Championship in Mobile, please? Or, has it not been set yet? I do not see it on the schedule page. We are trying to finalize our Baton Rouge 2010 schedule and we do not want to conflict with any of the championships.

Thanks for your help,
Robin

Robin
According to the sn tournament application it's suppose to be the last full weekend in July but I could be wrong...

JOhn k

I have been asked over the last couple of years if we could have a Mixed Division (male/female) added to the SNDC.

If so, I wouldlike to add that division to the 10th Annual Tishomingo Ice Bowl Survivor Doubles event the 16th of January.

I need to know ASAP to post the flyer. .

Thanks,

Bill

Dg Guy - Disc GOlf Plaques & Awards
662-660-0339

Know what you throw. . .
. . . throw what you know!

Bill it wil have to be at one of the next meetings. We have one Dec. 15th and Dec. 29th.

Leslie

That would be a wonderful idea. One question, would and SN $2 be added, or would it be like a regular tournament? Just a question as this would be a great idea. Also, would it follow the same format as the other divisions? Or would it be a little more simplified, etc not playing a worst shot. Alt shot would be a great thing. Actually in mixed doubles, Alt shot all tournament might be the fairest/best format. Just a few questions and ideas.

Terry Zeringue

What are the qualifications for playing in this event? I know "18. Eligibility: All players that have competed in an SN tournament that was an appropriate SNC qualifier...". If I take that literally it does not matter when a player competed in a qualifier other than prior to the championship. So if a player's last SN event was (for example) in 2007, are they qualified for the 2011 SNDC? Does the rule instead refer to an SN season and if so which one(s)? If a player has not competed in a 2010-2011 season SNQ is Huntsville (05/30/2011) truly the "last chance" to qualify for the 2011 SNDC that starts on 07/30/2011? Upon what authority can the 2011 SNDC TD disqualify a player whose last SNQ was in 2007?



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 05/29/2011 11:58AM by Discjazz.

Check section 3.2

3.2 In the SNDG Doubles Championship, both of the team players must be a SNDG Qualified player having competed in the current SNDG Tournament Series season or a SNDG Doubles Tournament in the current season.

Both players must have competed in the 2010-2011 SN series in a qualifier tournament. A player whose most recent SN tournament was in 2007 cannot compete in the 2011 SNDC.

_______________________________________________________________________________________________
Justin Tolbert
BHS Disc Golf [www.youtube.com]
Mobile, Alabama

Proposed replacement for Handbook Section 3 and elimination of Southern National Doubles Championship Guideline 18

3.1 A SNDG Doubles Tournament and/or Championship team will consist of 2 players.

3.2 Only qualified players may participate in a SNDG Doubles Championship and participation is subject to any conditions designated by the Tournament Director.

3.3 Players may be qualified for a SNDG Doubles Championship only by entering in and finishing one full round of play in a SNDG sanctioned tournament held during the qualifying season for which the Championship is held or by Sponsorship exemption pursuant to Southern National Doubles Championship Guideline 17.

3.4 A player who did not earn points pursuant to Section 2.3 or enter in and finish one full round of play in a Southern SNDG Doubles Tournament during the qualifying season for which the Doubles Championship is held and does not have a Sponsorship exemption may not register for the Doubles Championship before the last two weeks preceding the date the event begins.

3.5 The qualifying season for a SNDG Doubles Championship is the last calendar year long period beginning June 1 thru May 31 that ended prior to the Championship.

3.6 The team will register in a division qualified for per SNDG Handbook 1.6. The team will register in the higher division if the team players are in two different classifications.

3.7 A player's classification per SNDG Handbook 1.3, 1.4 and 1.5 is not changed by competing in a SNDG Doubles Tournament and/or the SNDG Doubles Championship. (i.e.-an Amateur does not become a Pro by pairing with a Pro and placing, etc...)

so are u saying in 3.4 that you can play with out a point?

Thanks for your time Kevin!

I dont think ANYONE should be allowed to play if they do not have ANY points.

Whats the point? Why need to Qualify?

Make it where you have to have at least say 20 points to play in ANY championship!



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 06/07/2011 05:49PM by head.

"so are u saying in 3.4 that you can play with out a point?"

Yes. Current Guideline 18 allows that now. A novice player in a SNQ gets no points but can play in the doubles championship. If the BOD wants to change that rule too I will be glad to fix. Remember, under the proposed rule, the novice player must still finish "one full round of play in a SNDG sanctioned tournament held during the qualifying season" to be qualified. I admit I don't know whether doubles tournament players get points either but I figured it didn't matter because they are qualified under the current and proposed rule regardless of points.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 06/07/2011 08:36PM by Discjazz.

My goal was to combine current G-18 & H-3.* into one rule while changing the season rule to what JK said the BOD intended to do and without changing any other rule. I changed that goal slightly by adding the Novice player one (1) round rule. That is required for points divisions so I imagined the BOD intended it to apply it to the no-points division(s) as well, even though it is not so clearly a requirement under the current rules.

3.4 A player who did not earn points pursuant to Section 2.3 or enter in and finish one full round of play in a Southern SNDG Doubles Tournament during the qualifying season for which the Doubles Championship is held and does not have a Sponsorship exemption may not register for the Doubles Championship before the last two weeks preceding the date the event begins

Is how it should read. Its the CHAMPIONSHIPS. In my measley opinion you should have to EARN your way in. NO free gifts of entry. 2 weeks before or not.

I like the rest of the work Kevin did.

JABBA


it MUST be the plastic



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 06/10/2011 10:07AM by frzbman.

I am confused by Guideline 18 where it says "(players that played in a nonpoints division such as Novice are eligible to register the last two weeks prior to the championship if the tournament isnt full at that point.)". Supposedly Novice is a non-points division according to this Guideline. Isn't the Novice division the same as the Recreational division? When I look at Player Stats there are points for the Recreational division. The Handbook also seems to award points to the "Novice" division. If the BOD could explain this discrepancy in the BOD intent I would be happy to re-fix the rule. If Novice players do get points I do not understand the need for the Guideline language quoted above and 3.4 of the proposed rule could just be eliminated.

The big problem here is that one cannot read what the rules are.

In case I am not being clear enough, the only reason I included 3.4 in the proposed rule is that I thought the intent was to let non-points division players qualify for the Doubles Championship if they finished one full round in any SNQ (singles or doubles). If there are any "non-points" divisions, those players have earned the right to play the same as any other division player by finishing one full SNQ round. Nobody has to finish more than one full SNQ round to get points in any division per Handbook 2.3.

Sorry for the multiple posts but I wanted to clarify that I am referring to the revised Handbook at the link below, not the Handbook link on the home page of this site.

[docs.google.com]

Did the BOD ever actually adopt this revised Handbook and if they did where is that published?

Novice/Recreational divisions have never been awarded SN points going back to as long as I've been handling the results (except accidentally). The points divisions were those that are represented in the SN championships. Since there is no novice division at the SNAC no points are awarded. I know the excel spreadsheet Kevin designed did award points to novice, whether by accident or not am not sure (and the 09-10 season when Kevin posted most of the results novice were awarded points).

JOhn k

Thanks John. I still think it would be helpful if someone could answer this question:

Did the BOD ever actually adopt the revised Handbook and if they did where is that adoption decision published?

However, regardless of which Handbook is in effect it is clear that the Handbook awards points to the "Novice" division. We can't blame Gilligan for following the Handbook in including points for the Recreational division in his excel spreadsheet (assuming Novice is the same as Rec - another question the BOD should answer). He was just following the Handbook.

There is no need for any of these rules if we are not going to follow them.

I remember a while back a post from Bob that at the time I thought was a little harsh. Now I think it was necessary so I will repeat it. I may be using a different word than he did, but the refusal to acknowledge and follow these rules as written because something else was intended or thought to exist is really a prime example of wimpification. My spell checker says that is not a word but I'm going with it anyway.

Back to the main point of this thread, the BOD needs to decide whether or not there are non-points divisions that can qualify for the Doubles Championship before the qualification rules can be properly re-written.

I do see there is very little interest in this so maybe we should just not bother. It's no big deal to me either way - just trying to help by making sense of it, common or otherwise.

I feel I'm best qualified to speak on my behalf.

Novices ended up with points in my spread sheet due to two reasons:

Sheer ignorance in the matter.

and

Copy paste is so easy... I just didn't bother to even look and just kept following the routine I was and not paying attention to which division the math was being calculated on.

I believe someone else has been given access to the excel file and now carries that torch if they care to change it.

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